[Inferno]

Thanks for posting that Wixy! You're absolutely right, there seems to be no creative stereo effects anymore in jingles especially in this digital age where the quality is so much clearer.

[mbMember]

What do you do for dab? A babbling brook of digital noise??
Stations on DAB must want to avoid talking quality because its so dire!!!

[dreke61Member]

Thanks Wixy! That's REAL stereo. Couldn't agree more with your comment.

[mumoss]

I'd never heard any cuts from that package before – but they've instantly become some of my favourite jingles. Thanks Wixy!

[JAM / PAMSMember]

has a “traditional” studio skill perhaps now been lost?

Remember that in the 60s and early 70s, the idea of FM stereo was a novelty. Stereo was a gimmick that was greatly exagerated so that listeners who spent the money for a new receiver and speakers (or headphones) would actually notice the effect and be impressed. Many FM stations actually had two microphones in front of the jock so that he could lean from one to the other and move around your room (or your head).

But would you like to know the real reason why PAMS stereo jingles from that era have so much separation? It has to do with the limitation of the equipment, not with a studio skill.

Take a look at the mixing console we had in PAMS studio C at the time packages like “Stereo Island” were being made. It's crude by today's standards; it was fairly crude even by standards at the time. Aside from only having four outputs, the channels had NO pan pots. That didn't matter for mono mixes, and the majority of the work PAMS did was for AM mono stations. But for a stereo mix, it meant that each individual tape track (or sound) could only be sent to one of 3 places: full left, center, or full right. The console had ONE pan pot, which you could patch one lucky thing into. So it was possible to move that one thing from side to side. Everything else was hard-assigned: Left, Center, or Right.

The console in studio A had the same limitation, and it didn't even have the one pan pot. I did get around this at the time by multing one signal into two channels and assigning one left and one right. By varying the balance between the 2 faders it essentially worked like a pan pot. But there weren't enough inputs on the console to allow you to do this more than once!

Because there were only a maximum of 16 tracks available on the tape machines of the day, most things other than drums were recorded in mono to conserve tracks. Today there is no shortage of virtual tracks, and almost everything is recorded as a stereo pair. So you do get a more realistic, acoustically accurate stereo recording. But unless mono elements are panned extremely left and right, you don't get that wide sound anymore. And remember, the more you pan something away from the center, the harder it is to have a mix which will be compatible with sounding good in mono. Remember mono?

Or does the client just not care?

A few do. Most don't. Sadly, it's not even something they know to care about.

[rsimpkins]

Ahh – takes me right back to the beginning of the seventies where you'd be forgiven for thinking everyone was barely capable of seeing past a drug-induced haze and miles of material in their flared trousers. A great package although I can see why it's not the top choice for re-sings these days! Maybe in another 10 years… Stereo truly is a lost art and it would be nice if jingles could bring it back – you'd probably not be surprised to know that even the Radio 4 news programmes (Today, World at One, PM), in stereo studios with stereo lines all the way to the transmitters, set all desk channels to MONO and the pan controls to centre. Not that I'm advocating panning John Humphries so far left he falls out of the window…

http://jinglemad.com/e107_files/public/1208421134_11720_FT60683_radio_4_jingle_package.mp3 filename:radio_4_jingle_package.mp3

[IainJohnstonMemberAuthor]

Thanks very much for chipping-in yet another excellent “behind-the-scenes” bit Jon!

(You really MUST make a start on The Book! … must already be potentially well beyond just 1 volume!)

Jon – “Remember mono” – in the UK, its “today's standard“! – OK, slight exageration – but in reality a sizable
proportion of “music stations” (for that read “computer in a cupboard jukebox”) that broadcast on our “new
technology” DAB Digital Audio Broadcasting System that is supposed to eventually lead to the closure of AM
and FM broadcasting, ARE in MONO – and as I mentioned some at as low as 64k bit-rate; and the algorithims
& processes are 10-year-old-plus MP2 not even MP3 or better.

(Hence the often-used phrase “sounds like bubbling mud” directed at the “quality” of much of the output
of the DAB stations (many of which are already closing-down) It's “blocks” of digital stations basically
sharing/mulitplexed one frequency, rather than the “digital sideband” IBOC systytem in the States).

DAB is “New, DIGITAL technology – and utterly dire compared with supposedly much “cruder” FM and only
marginally better than AM. DAB has the means to be in stereo and higher bit-rate, but that means fewer
“stations” can be crammed-in – and becomes too expensive in transmission fees. So MONO “lives” – sadly :^(

[IainJohnstonMemberAuthor]

Robin – the BBC Radio 4 “jingle package” is undoubtably THE MOST-recognised station ID on the planet!

(Quiz question: when & why does that “ID” get broadcast at a different pitch?)

[Inferno]

Michael Bolton wrote:
What do you do for dab? A babbling brook of digital noise??
Stations on DAB must want to avoid talking quality because its so dire!!!

Ouch!

[GrahamCollins]

Very interesting thread – along the same lines as 'demos in stereo versus mono' as discussed recently. Although most vocal stacks appear to be positioned at or near the centre in a mix it is the stereo reverb applied that spreads the sound. I love Jon's vocal reverb, it's very distinctive and always sounds right in context. Never throw out that old plate !

[IainJohnstonMemberAuthor]

Totally agree with Graham – the “default” JAM reverb seems to have a “natural” ambience to it.
I'm sure Jon could tell us if it is a “traditional” mechanical plate or spring unit, or whether its a
digital one tweaked-up from experience of having a “good ear”?

The Thomson one is almost a “trademark” that (along with a certain vocal “texture”) gives away
their product almost instantly – its that almost “tin-ny” (presumably “digital” ?) reverb Thomson
use that makes me think of the “economy” “Audio Editor” software packages that come free on
the CD/DVD on the back of monthly computer magasines!

Meanwhile, anyone want another dod of Classic PAMS this weekend (preferably in stereo if I can?)

[GrahamCollins]

Here are some of my favourite stereo PAMS cuts. The quality is just wonderful with instruments leaping out at you across the sound stage…..

http://jinglemad.com/e107_files/public/1208610245_321_FT60683_pams_stereo_montage.mp3 filename:pams_stereo_montage.mp3

[upsweepMember]

Chalks wrote:
Here are some of my favourite stereo PAMS cuts. The quality is just wonderful with instruments leaping out at you across the sound stage…..

http://jinglemad.com/e107_files/public/1208610245_321_FT60683_pams_stereo_montage.mp3 filename:pams_stereo_montage.mp3

Such a shame Pams did not get more airing's on british radio apart from the early BBC National stations – i have to agree with the above comments – just quality

[RadioboyMember]

What I found interesting about these Stereo Island jingles, is they borrowed a riff from the 'Spanky & Our Gang' song: Lepord Skin Phones.
*Stereo Island is brass on the right, brass on the left – rhythem in the middle*

Check out the original classic! > http://download.yousendit.com/F61C41B7281D9E4E
Ahh, Just love jingles like this! Great Post Wixy! Thanks

((RadioBoy))

[IainJohnstonMemberAuthor]

Graham, I noted the WNEW were stereo yet for 1130AM – were these a later re-sing / refresh in stereo
for the “AM stereo” experiments in the 1980s perhaps?

Hayley, I'm hoping a few posters can put on some more “early era” UK PAMS for you to hear – you heard
my 1960s pirate radio montages a wee while back but a PAMS composite did appear on Metro in the 1970s
and a near-duplicate of that (can't remember the DJ that was involved) was done for Radio Orwell; both
lots got the heavy-hand of the Musicans Union on them and either got binned or “UK talent” (huh)
re-instrumented/re-sung – as can be heard on a whole pile of JM posts on the topic in the back-list.
NB – we're not talking the “1980s” phase of Len & Co here; and why the BBC could have PAMS in the 70s
but not ILR is probably a huge topic in its own right.

If anyone else can't lay their hands on the Metro etc, I've still got Barry Charnley cassettes (er, somewhere!)

EDIT: Len Groat has a mention of the 1974(?) Metro cuts on another thread tonight.

Joe – brilliant post of that Spanky… song – I know PAMS (like any other company) sometimes “lifted”
a song for a jingle – right back to “I'll take Manhattan…” – but in all these years I'd no idea that the
SI cut was a “lift” – and a truly blatant one at that!

The song's actually a good funny send-up of “Hi-Fi freaks” in its own right too! :^)

[IainJohnstonMemberAuthor]

(The attached audio SHOULD have gone on the server at the weekend! sorry about that.)

Another PAMS non-series was called “Clyde” aka “Grabber” (allegedly “because they had to call
it something”!) derived from a custom for WKNR in Dearborn Michigan (close to Detroit).

It often appeared in “cherry-picks” as well as in its own right, and some cuts appeared in the
Radio One bundles of the early 1970s too.

http://www.4shared.com/file/44867251/d6cff755/Wixy1360-ClassicPAMS-Clyde.html
(some cuts are in stereo; the WKNR items are from the air-version rather than the demo).
Copyright acknowlwdged (c) PAMS of Dallas (JAM Inc)

As a PS – I always wondered if Glasgow's Radio Clyde 261 could have bought the package, but
as I now know from hindsight the Musicians Union restrictions of those days would have prevented
that from happening!

[topcat]

Actually, my understanding is that they were sitting around trying to think of a name for the WKNR package and a young Jon Wolfert said “Why don't we just call it Clyde” and it stuck. Since they named it CLYDE, they had to think of something it meant… so they came up with C)olossal L)ogos Y)ou D)idn't E)xpect. There was also a “KLYDE” demo version of the package for “K” stations.

When I acquired many of the original PAMS Demo Masters, CLYDE was amongst them… but the reel had been bulk erased.

On another note, the WNEW/AM jingles, despite being produced for an AM station, were originally in STEREO. PAMS showcased these jingles, but I think few (if any) resungs were done on them. When CPMG/PAMS resung the jingles for the NEW WNEW in the eighties, they were also produced, once again, in STEREO. Bob Piper, who wrote the original charts, was brought in to adapt the cuts for the eighties session.

PAMS borrowed liberally from contemporary music. There is another cut from STEREO ISLAND that is a direct rip-off of SPANKY & OUR GANG. I'll have to pull their box set to remember which one it was. Also, SERGIO MENDES & THE BRAZIL SIXTY-SIX were also ripped-off. Once upon a time, KenR sent out a sampler showing the various “borrows” that jingle companies did for their cuts. I'll have to see if I can find it and post it.

[mbMember]

upsweep wrote:

Here are some of my favourite stereo PAMS cuts. The quality is just wonderful with instruments leaping out at you across the sound stage…..

http://jinglemad.com/e107_files/public/1208610245_321_FT60683_pams_stereo_montage.mp3 filename:pams_stereo_montage.mp3

Such a shame Pams did not get more airing's on british radio apart from the early BBC National stations – i have to agree with the above comments – just quality

But remember we would not have had Sue Manning, David Arnold, LBS, Alfasound, Standard Sound, or Cath Baxter so keeping the yanks out gave us a golden age of British jingles.

[radio_blokeMember]

On the subject of early BBC jingles, I expect most of you long term collectors will already have this but the newbees might not

http://jinglemad.com/e107_files/public/1208799204_11954_FT60683_jingles_pams_radio_2_1967.mp3 filename:jingles_pams_radio_2_1967.mp3

[IainJohnstonMemberAuthor]

Good grief Rick! what media was THAT recorded on?!!
Sellotape? Classic stuff though!

Those re-sings of the PAMS Smart Set (as in Britain Radio) were aired from circa 1972 if
I remember correctly, and in stereo of course, as part of a much wider Radio Two PAMS composite.

As long as JMW doesn't mind, I can post an “in-the-clear” clean dub of those, if you can hold
on for a day or two?

Rick – I know you've joined JM very recently, so you might find a (long!) trawl from this recent
thread of interest (all audio links should still be extant)…
http://jinglemad.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?57233.0

And thanks TC for yet more “background info” regarding the “Clyde” Package – thats the first
time I've ever heard about the “Klyde” version – is there any copy of (presumably) a demo for
the K's still extant (I've got a few Kxxx station dubs, as you do, but never had an alternative demo).

[radio_blokeMember]

cheers Wixy, ok ok I know it was “low-fi” but there was a time in a galaxy far away.. before mp3 before MD and CD (grin) If you were a jingle collector in the seventies you were just chuffed to get hold of them even if it had been dubbed a hundred times. I look forward to the clean version

[IainJohnstonMemberAuthor]

“If you were a jingle collector in the seventies“

Er, I WAS!

“you were just chuffed to get hold of them even if it had been dubbed a hundred times“

And today's “MP3 Collectors” can't imagine a “20th-generation tape dub” – can they?!?!

“Today's Best Variety of Digital Compression Artifacts” has really got nothing on layer-upon-layer
of tape hiss, head azimuth distortion, multiple dub EQ degradation, oxide drop-off, etc etc, has it!

(Bung me an email Rick if you want to talk about possiblities of swapping any “classic” material? :^) )

[radio_blokeMember]

I was just on the hunt for a cut for radio boy (as he has offered some blinders over the weekend) and I came across a single peters production cut “let us be your music”….with 2 seconds missing off the end, any chance you have it?

[IainJohnstonMemberAuthor]

Rick, you'd have to provide a sample of the cut – and someone somewhere on JM would probably
then be 99.9% likely to have a copy of it!

All I have of Peter Productions is a dub of he “LogoMix” demo – and that has a flavour of Ben
Freedman's “Way Audio Creations” about it!

[radio_blokeMember]

ok i'll stoke up m'tape deck and m'audition

[Author]

Posts