[ratnobMember]

For interest …

Ex-Boss Jock Johnny Williams left radio in 1995 to consult and now runs the http://www.440.com website that helps to track down former jocks. This week in his blog he rediscovers the impact of jingles:

http://440blab.blogspot.com/

Geoff Barton

[martinlesterMember]

I think he has made some very good points as I have said before in the UK Every Station is like a copy cat

Every One has to have the dreaded sweeper in between the music Voiced by the same few guy/girl that are on every station

Every Station that has jingles have to have jingles that ” sound like the music we play”

Why ?

The example he has put together shows that the jingles do not need to sound the same as the records but
still can work in between the records instread of the dreaded linners (remember the examples are jingles from 30+ Years ago) mixed with todays music

http://www.thebrownestate.com/HIP-HOP.mp3

If you are selling the station then why not have something that stands out that the listners will remember

[kcmike]

Great find, Geoff. Very interesting read.

The writer posts 2 short montages of Rap and Hip Hop music transitioned with old Drake/Mann jingles and they work!

Bring back the acapella shotgun!

-Mike

[IainJohnstonMember]

?! – bounced Post!

[IainJohnstonMember]

Indeed!

Could we even get away from the “identikit” approach of calling jingles
“shotguns”, “transitions”, “ramps” and “tags” please! Its becoming meaningless!

An “A Capella” isn't a “Shotgun”, for example!

1) A capella is a musical term for voices singing without any instrumentation
– period.
An Acapella in jingle terms can be at any tempo and as short or as long as
needbe.

2) A “Shotgun” used to be a VERY short, usually fast jingle, with percussion
intro and no “overhanging” instrumentation. Nowdays it seems to be a
corrupted description of simply a short jingle up to 10 seconds or more.
If you want shotguns – find the old TM Phase II or similar era short jingles,
some so fast & short that the singers could hardly do them
(99-X New York, anyone?)!

3) A “ramp” – OK – “talk-up-ramp” then. Around here, stations have
them but never use them. As others have said, why must every jingle
end with the station name? Why does it have to be “talked-up-to”
anyway? Listeners don't like DJs (as they were once called) talking
right up to a split-second before the vocal on a “record”
– so why have the same thing with the jingles?

4) “Transitions” – between WHAT exactly??? They don't get played
BETWEEN records here! And WHEN did you last hear a “fast-to-slow”
etc jingle being used to change the pace/tempo/sound texture between
one song and the next???
AGain – listen to the old Phase II demo!

5) “tags” – why? no-one seems to “exit” from say the weather or traffic
report with a jingle any more anyway! So what is there to “tag”?

How about – simply – short jingles, medium length ones, long pads (weather
etc); fast jingles, slow jingles, etc; jingles where the station name is at least
sometimes at the front Or even MIDDLE” of a jingle and a slogan or frequency
OR SOMETHING DIFFERENT at least(!) at the end of the cuts.

And what is the point of everything being “Woa-woa, Yeah-Yeah!”
Run out of good creative vocal arrangers have they?

Otherwise – no matter how they try to jazz them up with digital effects
and stuttered vocals, every “bl**dy jingle from every company on
every station just becomes the same on-air but at a slightly different tempo.!
(And don't get ME started about sweepers!)

“Variety is the spice of Life” – same applies to radio – Will any Jingle Company
DARE nowadays to BE DIFFERENT???

[LenGroat]

'Will any Jingle Company DARE nowadays to BE DIFFERENT??? '

That's a very intelligently written synopsis of the current situation.

As regards your last quote, I would add that the jingle company in most cases 'does what it's told' by the radio station person. They are (like everyone) in the business of making money, keeping clients happy, so if the lyrics are not good, if the package being ordered is repetitive, they are unlikely to suggest 'improvements'.

I've heard some great ORIGINAL 60's PAMS packages VERY badly re-lyriced, with too many syllables, ugly phrases, hard endings that do not flow to music… so this problem has always existed. However, with so many stations using spoken idents for the last 10 years, the art of choosing tracks and suitable lyrics has definitely suffered.

It would take a joint effort by the jingle company, and the person from the station, to change this current status quo.

I think the Johnny Mann singers example, is EXACTY right as regards the US market, but in Britain those singers mean nothing, apart from the hit 'Up Up and Away', there is NO 'nostalgia factor'. The vocals are dated and anaemic compared to those that now come out of Dallas. Having heard KFRC and K-Earth 101 use the accappellas I found them extremely repetitive… I did wonder who had done them as they sounded too old. The JAM accappellas are far superior.

Finally the “Woa-woa, Yeah-Yeah!” factor is something I REALLY do not understand…. it does NOTHING for the jingle but lengthen it.

Perhaps it's the jingle companys way of making the station have something other than 'phrase and name' !?

Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel ?

[MarkHanna]

100% agree with you Len.

I worked in radio for 10years and came across so many PD/PC's that think they know how to write and produce Jingles. They go off the the Jingle company and TELL them ” I want these tracks, here's the lyrics that I've written”.

It was just like me sitting in the Commercial Production studio when clients would tell me…. “Here's the script, and we want it done in the voice of X Y or Z character”. I'd spend ages trying to convince them that the script is not right for that character (and in most cases, just a S**T script) – But they've made their mind up that are right and that’s it, we have to produce it so we get paid.

I guess there's plenty of Jingle companies that have told their clients “it will work better for you if you did it this way” …. But some PD/PC's like to think they know better, just like Commercial Producers clients like to think they know better. I never once told any of my clients how best to sell Cars or run their Restaurants, yet they felt it was there place to tell me how to produce an advert that will work for them – the happy ending to these cases….. the advert didn’t work for them! Ow, but then they’d blame the Radio Station!

[IainJohnstonMember]

Thanks for your comments, Len!

And for those that don't know – Len IS someone who knows EXACTLY
what he's talking about when it comes to radio production & presentation!

[MidwestP]

Also:

[topcat]

I have to laugh every time I read through posts like this. The reality is that the ID jingle products, for the most part, have become stale. Now I will point out that the PAMS sound grew out of the product of the day. In 1958, the vocals at Futuresonic were done to sound like the Kirby Stone Four; The Four Freshmen; The Hi-Los and The MacGuire Sisters. This vocal style continued throughout the decades that followed and is still heard in many jingles sung today.

That having been said… when you have a jingle track, you are limited to how much you can sing over them. A logo (or signature) is supposed to be used to “brand” the station. Any true collector can sing the logos for KHJ; WLS; WABC and Radio One without a thought. Unfortunately, most program directors don't know the difference. I always talk about WMAS-FM here that was using two different TM packages combined with both the WLS and WABC logos. Duh! The PD didn't know the difference (and the sales rep didn't bother to 'splain it to him).

Clients like to think they're correct, but you can't sing twenty four words into a shotgun…. though I'm sure its been tried.

[MarcMannetje]

@ Wixy 1360: I totally agree!

A big study over here in the Netherlands in 2002 showed that jingles where more effective when they DIFFERENTIATE from the music played: they stand out more. Listeners don't mind a 10 second 'break' between songs at all. It's fear of programmers they might leave when you do that, but when jingles are produced properly (musically interesting, positive, driven) they even like them…

I think we might conclude that fear leads to jingles that are much the same, boring and hardly noticable…

[DevawebMember]

You can argue it both ways. Some formats work well with jingles that are different in style to the music, but others need something that merges in nicely.

It's all down to listener expectation, and the psychological responses to jingles. Remember, things have changed from generation to generation, and what a Saga listener is used to (and will accept) is very different to what a Kiss 100 listener will accept.

What does a jingle do? It brands the station in an effective manner, aiding recall and thus boosting responses on Rajar/Arbitron surveys. As for the approach, one size does not fit all. Whilst one person's response to a 15″ mini-song can be very positive, for another person it's 15″ of nonsense that gets in the way of the music they tuned in to listen to.

i'm lucky – I work with both ends of the spectrum. At Real Radio, I used power intros to brand songs, doing away with any interruption of the music. However, I also had sung elements for competitions (Work Your Way to the USA) and traditional out-of-break IDs. These days, you can't even say that one form of imaging will work across a station – what you do in and out of stopsets might be very different to what you do between songs.

But it all comes back to the flow. Why stop the songs if you don't need to? In fact, why have sung jingles at all? Well, because a musical logo can be incredibly powerful when done right.

All I'd ask you to do is open your mind to all forms of imaging. In the year 2007, markets are so competitive that jingles have to be crafted, produced, scheduled and played very carefully.

Here a final through for you (for now)… one very large US station recently pulled jingles, because audience research showed that the listeners percieved them as just another advertising message. By removing the sung jingles, listeners felt that the ad breaks were shorter.

It's a fascinating, rewarding industry – I could waffle about it for hours, but I don't want to bore you.

Just remember, one size doesn't fit all.

Chris

PS – The example above of 60s jingles in to hip hop does NOT work in the slightest! It loses credibility with the target market and ruins the flow of the music. In my opinion

[MarcMannetje]

Those are good points Chris.

The psychological factor perception however can be influenced: If you 'learn' your listeners that jingles are just part of the fun they experience on the radio, they will percieve it more positively just because they're used to it. So let's say if you expose 10 years olds to a station that uses 'old fashion jingles' they really like, they might experience the cuts differently 20 years later…

And as for the US station that pulled the jingles: maybe listeners feel the breaks are shorter, but what about the new listeners who can't compare the station with let's say a year ago, will they have the same positive feel? And will they remember the stations name in surveys?

Interesting discussion though…

[IainJohnstonMember]

“A big study over here in the Netherlands in 2002 showed that jingles where more effective when they DIFFERENTIATE from the music played: they stand out more. Listeners don't mind a 10 second 'break' between songs at all. It's fear of programmers they might leave when you do that, but when jingles are produced properly (musically interesting, positive, driven) they even like them…”

Well said Marc!

Whether its a “continental” trait or not I don't know, but
having been on summer holidays in France for a number
of years, their stations certainly don't seem to have a
problem with distinctive 10 second sung jingles between
every two songs!

For those that need an antidote to the current screechy
dull US jingle vocals and excessively “street cred” sound
(I DO like that description of their burnt-out sound Len!),
here's a couple of demos from the excellent Freeway of
Paris (and dammit! – they DON'T do Personal Cuts!)

http://www.4shared.com/file/16213935/c80b0c47/Freeway-2005-BestOfCherieFM.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/16214478/47d91e14/Freeway-2005-BestOfNostalgie.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/16214638/20310f7e/Freeway-2005-BestOfFranceBleu2000-2004.html

Melodies, superbly-layered harmonies (especially their
Cherie FM packages over the past 10 years), actual
musicians, proper lyrics…maybe our American friends
might think this “old-fashioned” but I've heard many
and more of these French stations for over 8 years now
– and apart from the French penchant of singing the station
name 10 times on every jingle, they at least give stations there
a distinctive sound that stands out!

[LenGroat]

Iain

a VERY interesting selection … great vocals, 'warm', unashamedly catchy, and great tracks with more than a drum machine…

Thanks for posting these…

Len

[ratnobMemberAuthor]

Those Cherie FM have more than a hint of Eurovision about them, don't they – bright, slightly cheesy and rather earnest? I can imagine they work really well on a station that plays music that is bright, slightly cheesy and, er, rather earnest.

And that seems to be the moral of this whole thread – some jingles work on some stations for some purposes sometimes: some don't. It could be the First Rule of Jingles.

Have to say, going back to the beginning, I agree with Chris that the Drake shotguns with the hip-hop songs don't work at all for me. I suspect they're a curiosity item for those of us who like the jingles more than the music, but music aficionados listening to the station would think them deeply naff.

Thanks for a really good discussion over the past week.

Geoff Barton

[IainJohnstonMember]

Len said…” a VERY interesting selection … great vocals, 'warm', unashamedly catchy, and great tracks with more than a drum machine“

For a bit more of Freeway demos, go to

http://www.freewaymusic.com/Version_francaise/Jingles.htm

“Reseaux” are Networks (NRJ, Cherie, RTL2 etc); International includes the rare
Galaxy 102 Manchester custom; Localses tends to be re-sings and local/regionals
such as Star.

post that myself once I find a copy>

“Geoff said” Those Cherie FM have more than a hint of Eurovision about them, don't they – bright, slightly cheesy and rather earnest“

Always thought the Cherie FM package (or at least the production
style & harmonies) would work well on Radio Two!

(and after the latest UK Eurovision “success”, its maybe time the Brits stopped trying to be American!)

For a bit more of France Bleu and other on-air, the “Grand Tour” is still available…

http://www.4shared.com/file/13839800/74507ef9/Wixy1360-TheGrandTour-revisited.html

I've always promised to do an of-air montage of French station jingles…must get a RoundTuit!

[MarcMannetje]

@Wixy

Freeway did a great package for SudRadio in the early 90s. I was over there to celebrate my high school graduation and immediately loved the station. They had great lyrics (Je pense de moi – Je pense de toi – Je pense de l'une radio ou il fait toujours beau – Avec Sud Radio). Short songs and a very sensitive melody line.

Do you have them? This specific package isn't on their website…

[IainJohnstonMember]

MarcMannetje wrote: “@Wixy

Freeway did a great package for SudRadio in the early 90s. I was over there to celebrate my high school graduation and immediately loved the station. They had great lyrics (Je pense de moi – Je pense de toi – Je pense de l'une radio ou il fait toujours beau – Avec Sud Radio). Short songs and a very sensitive melody line.

Do you have them? This specific package isn't on their website…”

Sorry Marc – I only have the later one on the website.

I wrote to Freeway several years ago (in my best (?!) French) asking about
CD dubs of packages etc, and got a polite but no-go letter back from one of
the Costa Brothers (in excellent English!) referring me back to the MP3 demos
on their website. Was worth trying though!

I've often trawled the Web for Freeway material “in the clear”, but only
got a few rough bits & pieces from places like Activeradio.org – are there
no Jingle Collectors in France !!!!???

[IainJohnstonMember]

Just to add the “missing” Freeway demo to this lot…

http://www.4shared.com/file/16213935/c80b0c47/Freeway-2005-BestOfCherieFM.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/16214478/47d91e14/Freeway-2005-BestOfNostalgie.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/16214638/20310f7e/Freeway-2005-BestOfFranceBleu2000-2004.html

…the re-sings for “local” stations are on this montage
(NB – the original is cut-off at the end too)….

http://www.4shared.com/file/16330623/9006f025/Freeway-2005-PotPourriLocales-NB-endcroppedoff.html

[MarcMannetje]

I know Wixy! I got the same, I complimented them with the package and asked for a demo – thank you but no…

A shame, because those little songs were my favourite ones for a long time. I'll try and find a french collection site, good thought!

[Author]

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