[LenGroat]

As heard in Downloads: I'm sorry to hear the way this station sounds ~ the problem is possibly that they are 'presenters' and not 'deejays' at heart, and lack training or the 'spark' that makes good radio. The woman seemed to be READING her piece and still could not get the timing right.

We may be nostalgic on this site for the 'good old days' but some BBC Local stations sounded like this 25 years ago and nothing seems to have improved at all. It is, to use a current fad word ~ cheesey' and Licence payers have NO say over this expenditure.

[fredgreek]

It is such a shame that presenters can't get their timings right.

LenGroat wrote: the problem is possibly that they are 'presenters' and not 'deejays' at heart

Although rerally, no one should be able to use that as an excuse. Surely, isn't it part of the job of working in radio to know not just the music but also the jingles, how to use them and the timings?

I say that if you don't know the correct timing, don't talk while a jingle is playing!

[JohnBarnesUK]

Well I have to take exception to this thread, which has left a bad taste in my mouth.
To condemn the staff and talent of a radio station because of a couple of bad links is not very positive.
You could say the same of ANY station in the country.
Have you heard presenters like John Gillmore, Alec Makinson and Phil Trow on this radio station?
People work hard here to make GREAT radio.
I don't understand how it can be in ANY way compared to the output of BBC Local Radio 25 years ago.
I'm a long standing member of this forum, I think I understand jingles after all this time and would hope I have the “spark” to make good radio.

[applrmac]

Calm down everyone!!! The downloads are a little bit of fun on what happen's with live radio. It's not worth getting up set over.

I was passing through the North yesterday and was highly impressed with couple of hours output on BBC Cumbria and BBC Lancashire (Wednesday afternoon). The music and interviews were very listener-able particularly the interview with Bonnie Tyler. I'm sure some presenters have an “OFF day”, but the comments of “…some BBC Local stations sounded like this 25 years ago and nothing seems to have improved at all..” by Len seem very very harsh.

Personally I prefer radio with presenters who are less “DeeJays” and more “Entertainment Conversational type”. I also remember Chris Tarrant regularly talking over his toth jingles on Capital and trent FM are frequently crashing on their new package. Isn't it better to say the right things and talk over jingles or repeatedly churn out the station name, frequency and phrases and hit the vocals?

I find the BBC makes some of the best radio and some of the worst. I choose what I like and hit the rescan button when its not good for my ears.

Len if you think the BBC haven't changed – have a listen to Bernie Keith on BBC Northampton. Entertaining, laugh a minute, sometimes serious and he hits the vocal on talk-ups.

[Barras]

applrmac wrote:
I also remember Chris Tarrant regularly talking over his toth jingles on Capital

Chris Tarrant intentionally talked over the jingles and as far as I know, is the only dj/presenter to do that in the UK. I wouldn`t normally advocate talking over jingles (as I like to hear the sung jingle on its own !) but in Tarrant`s case, it made for fast moving radio at breakfast time and it certainly worked.

The first time I heard a dj/presenter talking over jingles was Dan Ingram at WABC in New York City. Again, it was intentional, Dan used to talk over all the station jingles including his PAMS name-check jingle and it was subliminal and a very effective style of Top 40 presentation.

[fredgreek]

JohnBarnesUK wrote: People work hard here to make GREAT radio.

I don't understand how it can be in ANY way compared to the output of BBC Local Radio 25 years ago.

People may work hard to make great radio, but it can ALWAYS be even better. Small things like not crashing the vocals can make all the difference. If people do accidently crash the vocals, once or twice then thats fine; all people make mistakes. Its when it gets repeated over and over again that annoys me – it shows no effort to learn from mistakes.

applrmac wrote: I'm sure some presenters have an “OFF day”

Yes! They do… 'off days' are fine in my view. What I don't like is people who genuinely don't know their timings and don't know how to correct it.

Most people know what they are doing most of the time and are a great asset to their radio stations/the radio industry etc. Its the ones that don't learn from their mistakes who let the side down a bit. Not a massive problem, but small things are often the ones with the biggest impact.

applrmac wrote: I find the BBC makes some of the best radio and some of the worst.

I guess that comes from having such a wide audience… not everyone likes everything.

[martinlesterMember]

If you are really intrested in making the station great

well “How long does it take to sit in the production room and listen to a few jingles before playing them on air “

A little prepration goes a Long Way

[Bigdave]

To bring the discussion to a positive conclusion,listen to these…

They were prepared by Trent in advance of the release of their packages to allow presenters to know what the cuts sounded like and how to use them.Not only are they great pieces of audio,they serve a purpose – to show how good imaging can enhance the listening experience…

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zggly2mqfzn

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?aoemk4gjyv1

[Inferno]

Bigdave wrote:
To bring the discussion to a positive conclusion,listen to these…

They were prepared by Trent in advance of the release of their packages to allow presenters to know what the cuts sounded like and how to use them.Not only are they great pieces of audio,they serve a purpose – to show how good imaging can enhance the listening experience…

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zggly2mqfzn

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?aoemk4gjyv1

Good point. I think it would be also worth while for presenters to hear the whole jingle demo as well to know how the jingles work if audio presentations aren't available. A bit of communication between studio and outside broadcast would be good as well to let the presenter know what jingle is being used and how long it is.

[LenGroat]

I fear that as someone with practical experience in radio and jingles I may sometimes 'roam' into more 'serious' territory on here, and that seems to irritate some contributors whose interest is purer, and more JUST about the jingles, not the radio stations, presenters, or how the jingles are used.

The examples of poor quality presentation on the station may be typical or non typical, but it speaks for itself (and another contributor posted the audio not me)

My broader point was that 100% of the British public continue to HAVE pay (via the BBC licence fee) for a large network of BBC local stations, that are EXTREMELY variable in quality. There are many negative comments about Commercial Radio on here, but BBC local stations are just as guilty. If you don't want me to judge them on their 'style' (mp3airchecks) judge them on their LATEST ratings:

BBC Local and Regional Radio weekly reach = 19%

Commercial Local and Regional Radio reach = 50%

Or put another way, 4 out of 5 people who HAVE to PAY for BBC Local radio NEVER listen to it.

As regards the point about ME 'crashing vocals' I hope the audio posted (thanks BigDave) of our in house jingle demos (by the talented Danny Cox) shows that I expected my presenters to live up to the high quality of the jingles I worked on. I did not buy such great product to have it ‘crashed’…

I'm pleased this topic has elicited some lively debate, the lifeblood of such forums is the writers not the readers.

[IainJohnstonMember]

Lets not get too steamed-up now gentlemen! After all, its only jingles! :^)

Len may unfortunately be tarring too many (English) BBC locals with a very broad brush, but I must admit I've heard a woman “newsreader” on BBC Newcastle several years ago who was so loose, slow, un-dynamic, and so lacking in any voice projection that the standard would have been embarrassing to many hospital radio sttaions.

I've also heard a south coast BBC local some time ago where the DJ/presenter was using (illegally?) old 1960s era US “generic” jingles (SESAC?).

Hopefully these particular 2 stations are a bit more “pro” in their attitude nowadays; I just find it sad that Scotland doesn't even have the chance of proper “city”-style BBC “local” radio here to supplement the “national” BBC Radio Scotland.

“Chris Tarrant intentionally talked over the jingles and as far as I know, is the only dj/presenter to do that in the UK.”

David – you obviously don't “wake up to Wogan”! but in his case its all part of the act.

Some Radio Clyde listeners might recall a breakfast DJ who thought it was “hip” to purposely always start talking at the end of each “…two-six-one” jingle right at the the first split-second of the sylabul “…one”, and the resulting instant fade-&-squash of the vocals as he trampled over them sounded absolutely dire (…”two-six-Wih“).

[barrydavidallanbda]

Any chance of “The LenGroat Jingle company “

we all know that todays radio stations dont know what a great jingle is…..and its sad to say …. great jingles are not made in the uk… just cheap copies of stuff from the usa..

“Groat jingles with real singers” …could work !

[AndyWaltersMember]

Normally I agree with Len but comparing 250+ (different sized UK stations with different formats) RAJARs with 40 BBC locals that cover “most” of England only is a bit unfair don't you think? Especially as you could never compare a non stop music commerical local station to a BBC one that has to do blocks of meaningful speech during peak times. Some of it ain't great but there's just as much poor commercial radio out there.

[applrmac]

BBC Local and Regional Radio weekly reach = 19%

Commercial Local and Regional Radio reach = 50%

You can draw little from these stats without some analysis & conclusion to what and why. It's like telling one fraction of a story and drawing one big conclusion.

Broadcasting to a specialist market will always have a small amount of listeners. Stats should always be used as a guide and not a bible.

I would only be concerned if you said the BBC had no listeners.

At the end of the day we are all different with different tastes – and that has to be good. Just because something is more popular doesn't mean it's better.

It's great to see you have strong opions Len – but try to stay calm and understanding towards other contributors. It's only a jingle after all.

[barrydavidallanbda]

But this is a jingle site ,and Len is saying that a presenter was talking over a jingle…”the Jingle ” is the little piece of Art we on this forum love to enjoy, if we want to talk about the good and bad of ILR and BBC there is another part of this forum we can use .. or Radiotoday.
This section is called Music Imaging / Current Jingle Scene..and Len was right to talk about the use of a current jingle on a station ….

“It's only a jingle after all.” …isnt the answer we should use on this site !

If we want to talk radio… ILR and BBC station may get a reach of 19% and 50% but the the quality has gone out of the uk radio system… but then “It's only a radio station after all.”

[Breakbumper]

My first posting for a long time, but I felt that I had to put in my ten bobs worth.

Last evening I was listening to BBC Radio Lancashire and Manchester. What I heard was excellent. The music and speech was just right for that time of the evening and it was live.

I listened for two of the three hours of the late show (presented by John Barnes – an ex ILR man) and didnt hear a single jingle crash, and believe me I would have noticed.

It is a shame that ILR has been reduced to 'lowest common denominator radio', ran, in the main by people who don't know radio or have any experience of life.

BBC Local Radio used to be cheesy but not any more, that mantle has been taken by commercial radio. Anyone can play the same few songs from a glorified jukebox, crack crude jokes and play TV themes endlessly. That is not the Radio I choose to listen to.

I was thoroughly entertained throughout the long car journey by a presenter who totally engaged me.

And before anyone accuses me if ILR bashing, I am not, just stating facts as a listener in the age group which should be listening to his local radio station, which is only live and local for a few hours a day.

I've been a fan of night time radio for longer than I can remember.

Automation and Voice Tracking has killed commercial radio and all the good presenters have either joined the BBC or have been ousted out of the industry.

[JohnBarnesUK]

Well, Thank You “Breakbumper” I really appreciate those words.

I've refrained from posting again in this thread since it's clear that it was started to simply knock BBC Local Radio.

As Mark Twain said there are “Lies, damn lies and statistics” as we had with the quoted figures for BBC Local Radio and Commercial Radio.
It's not possible to compare hundreds of Commercial Stations with 40 BBC staions.
In fact it makes the BBC figures rather good I would say.

In the Lancashire area alone there are 12 independent stations and many more available from just over the border in Manchester and Liverpool.
Hardly a fair comparison.

I do know that the Quarter 1 2009 Rajar for this area tells me that my show is beating every commercial station by some distance.

I spent years at some major commercial stations and loved almost every minute of it.
I'm a child of commercial radio, I grew up with the great stations in the midlands, BRMB and Beacon 303.

I've ordered a number of great jingle packages from JAM for stations where I've been Manager or PC.
But today, in 2009 there is only one place I want to be and it's not there.

I drove home from Cornwall at the weekend and heard lots of radio, some good, some frankly terrible.
One station played me their news jingle time and time again during the bulletin.
Now that may or not be representative of the stations output or commercial radio in general, but I'm not going to name it or rubbish it on a public forum.

[barrydavidallanbda]

I rate Radio lancs I was part of the team for getting on three years .. I feel bbc Lancs and merseyside are the quality stations in the northwest… GMR (radio manchester ) always got the pr and the “names from tv” to present shows on the station … but their output was never as good

And while this is a forum about jingles ….I was the station voice over for radio lancs and the bbc night network…..We had a great Jingle package in Blackburn from TM thanks to Alec from the station

[LenGroat]

Ref: I listened for two of the three hours of the late show

Well you are a TOTALLY untypical listener then…

In the latest JICRAR – the BBC have to PAY for it, and USE it heavily when it's for Radio 1 or 2 – so I think it's VERY fair to QUOTE it:

BBC Manchester listeners tune in to the station for an average of 1.0 hour per WEEK

Radio Lancashire listeners for 1.80 hours a WEEK.

Both these figures are BELOW the average for BBC local stations which is 1.90

But both you (your FIRST post) and John Barnes are ignoring/missing my KEY point, that whereas Commerical radio has to EARN it's income, the licence payers have NO CHOICE but to pay for a service they use in VERY small numbers (one person in five)

IF the BBC was TRULY ACCOUNTABLE I suspect half the local stations would not be able to afford ANY jingles, and quite a few of them would be closed because of their EXTREMELY low reach and hours listened figures.

Your comments have LITTLE to do with 'Jinglemad' topics, but I have answered in the spirit of 'right of reply' to your rather closely posted, 'complementary' posts.

I made my remarks about the use of jingles based on a piece of audio posted on this site by someone I do not know, and I stick to them. I have no interest in debating this further.

Len

[DevawebMember]

LenGroat wrote: BBC Manchester listeners tune in to the station for an average of 1.0 hour per WEEK

Radio Lancashire listeners for 1.80 hours a WEEK.

I don't particularly wish to enter the debate, but these figures are incorrect.

BBC Manchester listeners tune in for 9.8 hour per week.
BBC Lancashire listeners tune in for 9 hours per week.

Len was quoting average hours per head in the TSA, not per listener.

As a comparison with local radio in the areas…

Manchester stations…
Key 103 listeners tune in for 7.1 hours per week.
Rock Radio listeners tune in for 7.8 hours per week.
Galaxy 102 listeners tune in for 8 hours per week.

Lancashire stations…
Rock FM listeners tune in for 7.3 hours per week.
Radio Wave listeners tune in for 10.1 hours per week.

North-West Regional stations…
Real/Century listeners tune in for 7.6 hours per week.
Radio Wave listeners tune in for 8 hours per week.

Based on those figures alone, I would make the assumption that the reason there are many more commercial radio than BBC Local listeners is because there are many more stations. Indeed, if you compare all BBC radio to all commercial radio, BBC still wins – 56.3% reach versus 41.6% reach. That might suggest that per station, the BBC gain far greater success than local radio.

Of course it's all statistics, which can be spun any way, but I wanted to correct the quoted figures.

Chris

[Breakbumper]

Well Mr Groat, that more than slightly annoyed you. What was your last post inferring? I'd love to know. I was just posting the fact that I enjoyed a radio programme, and that I didn't hear any 'crashed' jingles. As for being untypical who is? I live in a rural area, miles from anywhere. Don't forget, It's my BBC too. One thing I would like to know, your profile states that you are in Portugal…so it's not your BBC anymore is it!, or are you watching – and listening – to the BBC for free…oh and it isnt my first post. I've been a member of this site for years, but forgot my login details.

[LenGroat]

Breakbumper – I'm not 'annoyed' by anything except the 'holier than thou' attitude the BBC takes in many ways ~ the licence fee is COMPULSORY, the public were never 'asked' if they wanted these local stations ~ the output is very variable ~ the two stations John Barnes works on have totally different formats/jingle styles during the day, and yet at night they syndicate.

My opinions on radio/jingles are just as valid from Portugal as they would be from England.

Chris: 'if you compare all BBC radio to all commercial radio, BBC still wins'

Of course it does as YOU have INCLUDED Radio 1 and Radio 2 figures ~ but THIS topic is about BBC Local radio!?

To paraphrase your words and show the true total figures for one of your examples 'if you compare BBC Local radio to local commercial radio' local commercial radio wins!

Using YOUR figures:

BBC Manchester listeners tune in for 9.8 hours per week

Key 103, Rock Radio and Galaxy 102 listeners tune in for 22.9 hours per week!(you can only listen to one radio station at once)

I'm not saying 'ILR' is any better than the BBC, I'm just making the point that many of the local BBC stations would SINK because of their low listening figures in these financially stringent times were it not for the Licence Fee. And I totally AGREE that 'Automation and Voice Tracking has killed commercial radio and all the good presenters have either joined the BBC or have been ousted out of the industry'

I'm very lucky I escaped from 'ILR' BEFORE the cart machines and turntables were removed from the studio, before 'research' dictated what was played, and before 'fashions' in jingles/so called 'themes' led to some of the awful identification now heard on British radio.

Len

[JohnBarnesUK]

This I PROMISE is my final word on the subject.

Yes, we syndicate 3 hours a day, 4 days a week.
Radio Lancashire is live from Blackburn 19 hours a day. Radio Manchester is local from Manchester from 0100 to 2200 (21 hours) Monday to Thursday and 24 hours a day Friday to Sunday.

Listeners on both stations hear local jingles and content, I spend a lot of time making sure that it works.

As I remember Radio Trent / Leicester Sound was “syndicated” from 1984 onwards for 12 hours a day, pretty much the start of the networking that we now have in Commercial Radio.

Roger Day is a true legend in this industry, and he's no less of a legend because his show is broadcast on a number of BBC stations in the south-east of England.

We operate the only fully staffed radio newsroom in Lancashire, the first bulletin read from Blackburn is 0600, the last at Midnight.
In saying that I have GREAT respect for people like Andy Mitchell who does an AMAZING job at Radio Wave in Blackpool.

Thank You and Goodnight ..

[Breakbumper]

Again, probably not on thread, but the ILR of old was as varied as the people who lived in the areas they served. My favourite was Piccadilly, then Beacon 303. Two very different stations serving two very different areas – and mostly live and local. What went wrong?

[radio_blokeMember]

Breakbumper wrote:
Piccadilly, then Beacon 303. Two very different stations serving two very different areas – and mostly live and local. What went wrong?

Money!!
Radio is an expensive business and investors are less romantic than us they want to see a return on their investment.
ILR of old had less competition! BBC National and local radio plus 3 TV services.

We now have over 200 radio stations and 300 TV services
The good folks at Proctor and Gamble probably have the same relative advertising budget to flog us head and shoulders shampooo (other shampoooos are available) but their per station spend must be diluted. Less radio sales revenue means less return for the investors so they sell out and hey presto a “group” is born.
This changes nothing! just a different set of investors to keep happy and as with any business when you are unable to stimulate growth to increase earings per share the obvious option is to reduce out goings, hey presto a network is born!

I wonder if the broadcast authority in its various forms issued too many licenses?

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