[MarcMannetje]

Six months ago BBC Radio 2 opened a pitch for jingle producers for the production of the new overall station sound. Does anyone know what the status is right now? I haven’t heard anything since… I had e-mail contact with one of the BBC-guys involved with the project, but he couldn’t tell a thing… I am very curious, like you might be!

[mbMember]

Still in progress.

[upsweepMember]

got to say i love the additions from GrooveWorx earlier this year, pity the site only has the dj cuts

[LenGroat]

This is a topical post ! The ‘ERadio’ Newsletter today ‘fanfares’:

‘The Radio Festival 2011’ – in Salford (the new London)

With a session on ‘Jingles & Imaging’

“Is having the right imaging as important as getting the playlists, presenters and marketing right for a station? Capital Yorkshire’s Simon Hirst enlists the help of Sandy Beech from Music4 and Radio 2’s Chris Reay to talk jingles. We’re promised the creation of a jingle during the session too – with singers on standby in a studio to perform it!”

So one of the ‘experts’ is Radio 2’s Chris Reay from the station that had to issue a complex brief, give a closing date of April, yet STILL NO NEW JINGLES! This is ‘radio political correctness’ gone MAD, and I fear we all know WHAT they wil sound like when they do appear!

I hope the singers for the live session are already practicing their ‘ooh ahh oohs’ ! And will they be JINGLE singers, or just ‘singers’ who are used on station idents?

Interstingly, the ‘ERadio’ Newsletter’ acknowledges US – and has a dig back !

“JINGLE MAD? The anorak-tastic site JingleMad.com has had a make-over. After some trouble it now looks very inviting and has the usual various discussions about JAM Jingles”

At least the Newsletter authors know WHICH is the jingle company MOST people think of F I R S T.

J A M

So.. come on Radio 2, eat humble pie, call Jon Wolfert… and get the station to SOUND as good as it did for many years !!

Len (anorak-tastic) Groat – now (Trent Sound) http://www.trentsound.com

[MarcMannetje]

Len I agree on a lot of points you have to tell my friend, but we must not forget that the talents of other production companies also put a lot of effort and love and care in their products. They are not there to make jingles sound bad, they just have a different philosophy about how jingles should sound and work on air.

If we agree jingles are an important part of a station sound and therefore of its succes, we should also admit that a lot of stations NOT using JAM are market leader…

I am still a big fan of JAM’s big full well produced orchestral vocal and instrumental sound though.

[simon_t123Member]

I’m with Marc for sure … tho’ I share Len & every JAM lovers love for the product

I think it’s called ‘evolution’ what worked for R2 for many years, may well not work the same in this day & age ? JAM was the #1 choice for jingles for many years, before that companies such as PAMS led the way, I think however that evolution saw PAMS give way to JAM and JAM give way to others. In the same sense Reelworld is far less prolific in the UK than they used to be, Grooveworx & Music4 too, far less on-air in the UK now, these companies had their turn at the top over the last decade (almost 2) And things still evolve to this day, Brandy imaging = REALLY good, Top Format’s production of their own packages rather than JAM re-sings – REALLY good, Ignite and many more companies sounding good right now !!!

I’ve always considered that JAM will become what PAMS has been to us for a while now, a reputable, quality company / product for covering oldies & classic hits formats, JAM has tried new things but in my opinion has not truly evolved within itself to encompass the sound that stations actually want, I know we love JAM and I don’t doubt they go the extra miles with custom projects and resings, we know who they are, what they’ve done and what they’re good at I would not want to knock JAM !!! But to me they shine with their back catalogue of truly fantastic packages, just as PAMS still does to this day … I’m not a huge fan of the more recent JAM material, the vocals are silky smooth yes, but programmers don’t appear to be wanting that sound. I just don’t think they evolved in the way for instance TM Studios has, from classic packages of the 70’s and 80’s similar to the JAM sound to the 90’s synth led packages (LA’s #1 Hit Music Station etc) to the recent years with ‘The Bee’ ‘Kingdom FM’ ‘TFM’ and the whole association with Lighthouse and Kissville products, plus Studio Dragonfly & iJingles products, I think TM have evolved keeping pace with the market, does anyone share that view ?

And tomorrow … or next week, another jingle company will emerge doing something slightly different !!! We’ll still love PAMS for PAMS, JAM for JAM and so on, but for a station as big & popular as R2 (and one that does not want to appear as MOR as it used to do Zzzzz !!!) I think the sound they need must evolve too, Wise Buddah and Grooveworx have helped R2 to do that since ’97, it will be interesting to see who wins the pitch to produce new R2 material, but my money (£1 at most !) would be on either WB or Grooveworx continuing the evolution for R2

… better that than another Mcasso !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MarcMannetje]

Simon I really agree with you on your very good analysis of the jingle market. IMO programmers tend to ask more for ‘musically alike’ imaging (based on the playlist) instead of ‘real jingles’ (big brass, big vocals, violins, the old metropole sound).

Like mentioned in the other post, Sky Radio changed from a 23 year JAM-heritage to Wisebuddah, but the station really doesn’t sound that bad with its new jingles, it sounds… more modern.

As I always understood out of the words of Jonathan Wolfert, JAM could make anything as long as the briefing of the station is clear. What briefing did WJXA/Mix92.9 gave to Reelworld with their first package (a Landmark package I think)? And would JAM really have created exactly the same sound?

I think besides radio stations, jingle companies too have their own ‘signature sound’. And when the taste of radio makers can change, the succes of any production company can too…

[mjb1124Member]

It’s honestly tough to say what type of sound JAM would produce if they were asked to make something totally modernized. Perhaps they are not being challenged enough. It seems like programmers go to JAM when they want that classic “Dallas” sound, while they go to other producers for something more contemporary. Recent AC packages like Up2date have more modern instrumentation, but still have that familiar vocal sound which – for better or worse – is not “in” right now. The 2011 KOST package sounds great on that station, but I can’t imagine a station like WLTW or WLIT using it.

The only package we’ve seen in recent memory that really broke from the classic sound was the Fresh 102.7 package, which did sound “fresh” in 2007, but perhaps is too mellow for where AC radio is going now. Similarly, the last real top 40 package they did was Pro Choice, which I thought sounded perfectly up-to-date for its time, but that was nearly a decade ago. We can’t even say what a 2011 JAM top 40 package would sound like, because nobody’s asked them produce one. Sometimes I wish they’d just put something out there, but I know that’s not how their business model works.

There is still something to be said for the vocal and musical quality of JAM jingles, and I think they’d be able to retain that while trying new sounds. I don’t believe that sounding current means having high-pitched female singers screaming call letters in your face, over tracks that are drowned in echo and effects. While AC stations are adding more contemporary rhythmic pop music than ever, much of it is still more musical and has better vocals and production values than your typical (and ubiquitious in the US) Reelworld AC jingle. That said, I do think that some European companies (Wise Buddah, Brandy, Top Format) come up with quality material, as do other Dallas companies like TM and Radioscape. And I’ll admit that Reelworld’s jingles work for CHR, Rhythmic, and Hot AC stations. But still, nothing tops JAM for me, and I would love to see more stations approach them and guide them towards new sounds.

[MarcMannetje]

I agree MJB. But there are much more pop rock sounding packages from JAM that sound modern like MasterMix (KWMX Denver), Heartbeat (London’s Heart 106.2); BBC Radio 1 or Hot Wired for DRQ…

[Good Time Oldie]

Here we go again , if you’re not JAM, you’re not worthy.

I agree with both Simon and MJB – “every dog has it’s day” and things move on, although JAM will always be “the first choice” for most people, and quite rightly so given their very high production and vocal values. However, that doesn’t mean other companies shouldn’t have a pop at things, Radioscape springs to mind, okay it uses the same singers as JAM but Johnny Hooper is one talented guy and could nail the Radio 2 gig easily.

I have heard the Groovewox pitch for Radio 2 and I personally thought the cuts were great, but we all know that “one Man’s Steak is another Man’s Mince”, so not sure what the rest on here would think of them. The guys at Grooveworx are very busy at the moment but have started work on their website, granted it’s only the “archive” stuff at the moment but they planned to put the Radio 2 pitch up there soon.

[LenGroat]

I’m pleased my post solicited such a broad response of replies – thank you.

Of course there will always be the JAM flag wavers’ like myself, but no one has really responded to my point about HOW Radio 2 are going about this :

“So one of the ‘experts’ is Radio 2’s Chris Reay from the station that had to issue a complex brief, give a closing date of April, yet STILL NO NEW JINGLES! This is ‘radio political correctness’ gone MAD, and I fear we all know WHAT they wil sound like when they do appear!

In an effort to ‘be seen to save money’ Radio 2’s staff are spending many MONTHS more than we used to spend in the 80s to actually CREATE packages from scratch (such as Trent

ANY savings made under this system are surely wiped out by the COST of members of staff going through this process so not able to ‘work’ on anythng else.

And will the product REALLY SOUND any better for the months of “jingle gestation”?

The BBC is grossly over-staffed, and gives ‘jobs for life’ to people who would not survive ten minutes in commercial radio, so Radio 2 should ‘get its act together’ over these jingles, and stop wasting licence payer’s money !

[MarcMannetje]

Len, I see what you mean. I think this is an organisation ‘problem’ for a lot of companies world wide… A lot of people in ‘management’ are just busy keeping their jobs instead of doing a job, while creative people with passion for their work are being frustrated by this management layer…. Let’s hope this culture will change soon!

[mbMember]

With the greatest of respect Len, I feel that your comments are unfair. The world of the BBC has changed – as it has at corporate level in every major corporation. Like it or not decisions are now very much based on procurement teams and proceedures across marketing and this INCLUDES jingles. As we have discussed the way the BBC has decided to move forward with imaging is to have BBC worldwide commission the packages and act as publisher therefore saving the corporation Millions in fees. We can argue if this is right or wrong but the controller of Radio 2 can’t just go to his preferred company and buy the package he wants. There has to be a fair commissioning process and BBC worldwide have to negotiate the terms. as you know this is not the regular model on which jingles are produced and therefore in order to ensure it is done RIGHT I would suspect the team at Radio 2 are working hard to ensure that the quality they need is delivered against very tight financials from BCC worldwide. The current jingles are working well and Radio 2 is doing well so there is no deadline to be met other than one of getting the right product at the right price on the right deal.

[mjb1124Member]

I agree MJB. But there are much more pop rock sounding packages from JAM that sound modern like MasterMix (KWMX Denver), Heartbeat (London’s Heart 106.2); BBC Radio 1 or Hot Wired for DRQ…

True… but those are all more than a decade old. Seems like nobody has asked JAM to do anything like that in the last 5 years, aside from maybe Fresh 102.7. I could see some AC stations using Hot Wired though, as there has been a trend towards using old CHR packages.

Anyway, I have confidence that the end result of this will be a fine jingle package for Radio 2. I certainly hope JAM and the other Dallas companies are in contention, but at the same time, we have to keep our minds open for newer players in the game.

[timbo]

The BBC is grossly over-staffed, and gives ‘jobs for life’ to people who would not survive ten minutes in commercial radio, so Radio 2 should ‘get its act together’ over these jingles, and stop wasting licence payer’s money !

Ouch! Unfair….

[Barras]

Just read all of this thread and thumbs up to everyone who has posted, really interesting comments, however, as far as Radio 2 goes, I`m being the one-word man….

JAM

[upsweepMember]

i wonder if the new package when / if introduced we have the current strapeline i have noticed over the tlast few weeks in their recent advertising “More 2 it”

[simon_t123Member]

When the 1997 Groove package went on air the stations strapline was “different every time” of course straplines can come and go before life expiry of a jingle package, I never really liked the fact R2 soon dumped all the cuts that sung the strapline in favour of ramp only versions … As upsweep says they could use “more 2 it” as a strapline on new jingles, but for how long might they use such a strapline ? It just sems to cheapen the deal when the strapline gets dumped and the jingles are made blander as as a result !

Possibly the way to go is talk up ramps and stagers that sing just “R2” or “BBC R2” voice-overs can fulfil the stations current strapline requirements …

This has proved to be an interesting debate from all angles, Len’s comments pro-Jam are entirely fair, everyone has their own tastes and requirements, it shows through this thread that us Jinglemad’ers are in touch with the way things are, the market and the players, we’re passionate (dare I suggest MORE passionate than the ‘suits’ and procurement departments ?) about jingles & imaging, and we should be really proud of all that !!! Perhaps we can collectively become imaging consultants …

Come to us programmers … Jinglemad Ltd !!!!

[mbMember]

I know that the station took a positive decision NOT to wrap itself around an on air strap line other than On Line, On Digital and on 88 to 91 FM to differentiate itself in the market. Commercial radio has become obsessed with More Music Variety, Number 1 Hit music station, The Best Music etc and so often that promise is broken. How many listeners actually believe Heart has More Music Variety just because they say it. Also presenters basically seem to revolve around using the strap line every mention. With the line up on Radio 2 its about the presenters and a strapline is clutter the station doesnt need. The differentiation is that it has no onair strapline it is simply Radio 2.

The More to it and other lines are primarily used in off air ATL promotion and maybe in supporting on air promos but are not designed to be part of on air identification. Whilst I love to hear a good strap line I tend to agree that the station hasn’t suffered from not having a strapline and is able to be more flexible with imaging not stuck to a phrase that quickly becomes tiresome. Hence you hear more name check jingles and most new presenters get a name jingle as the name and Radio 2 are what the station want to identify. I personally love the Paul O’Grady, Simon Mayo and Pick of the Pops jingles – Jingles for individual shows with an individual style.

I would suspect that the new jingles ( given the brief ) will be designed around Music Styles & Presenter names rather than an individual strap line. I know the styles of jingles I like and would want to hear but the team at Radio 2 are very expereinced & held in high regard. Just because they make make decision that we as armchair image experts would make does not make them wrong.

[GrahamCollins]

Spending any of the restrictive BBC budget on new imaging on R2 will be hard to justify. The current package has lasted nearly 15 years with a few updates and I’m sure the audience doesn’t really care – jingles, in the true sense are not part of the format. Very few presenters use what is available and specialist shows are imaged outside of any ‘station sound’ anyway. As we all know Steve Wright has his own personal imaging package that is part of the deal.

Radio 2 has a distinctive sound without the need for any clever imaging. MB makes the point very well that no strapline is flexible and different in itself.

So whilst my heart says yes what a nice idea and it will be good to discuss new jingles here I’m not sure I would notice much difference on air (unless they went for JAM). All they should do is update the news in and travel bed. Er, actually I’ve just been told they’ve already done this…….

[LenGroat]

This topic is interesting as it has now drawn attention to the fact that many of the Radio 2 shows are ‘farmed out’ and bear no relationship to any (attempted) ‘station style’ particularly clear on breakfast and afternoons.

The ‘personality or ‘ego’ (take your pick) of Evans and Wright dominate over any recognisable station style – including their choice of jingles – one reason they do not do the obvious of using Wright to fill-in on breakfast but bring in disastorous combinations of ‘personailtes’ from outside radio ?

Chalks: “Very few presenters use what is available and specialist shows are imaged outside of any ‘station sound’ “

Surely this is a ‘chicken or egg’ situation?

In the ‘JAM days’ a lot MORE jingles were played as they were more usable? The current package is (mainly) not jingles but ramps/intros, or over-long jingles that do not ‘work’ well with the music.

It’s been on for SO MANY YEARS the presenters have forgotten HOW to use proper ‘jingles’.

As regards ‘specialist shows are imaged outside of any station sound’ that would seem to be the MAJORITY of the output?

The Breakfast jingles, PAMS on Pick of the Pops, Steve Wright’s programme jingles… bear no relationship style-wise to the rest of Radio 2

MB “Like it or not decisions are now very much based on procurement teams and proceedures across marketing and this INCLUDES jingles”

But that cannot apply to the examples I’ve given? It does not seem Evans, Wright, Tony Blackburn spend MONTHS following any ‘procurement team’ they seem to be autonomous – the PAMS jingles were ordered and recorded in a VERY short space of time?

Len

The discussion continues…. the ‘procurement’ drags on, and the station loses any corporate direction…

[mbMember]

I don’t think we can compare the Radio 2 of now and the radio market place to Radio 2 in the Mid 80’s. Radio 2 is not a music station it’s a personality station. And unlike Heart where identikit presenters read “powerlinks” and created to be bland faceless bridges between ads Radio 2 is where you will find an eclectic mix of presenters and styles.
The station is big enough not to have to rely on strap lines and a standardised sound throughout the day. People have said it’s a miss match of jingles and styles but I bet everyone can hum you the news intro or sing you Radio 2. Several shows have their own flavour and style but does that make the listening experience any lesser? In the case of people like Wright and Blackburn what is the point of employing them if you can’t give them a bit of a free hand. In many cases the jingles where possible are designed around the presenter to suit their personality and style. Paul O’Grady is a big Avengers fan and has a jingle that suits his personality and tips a hat to the Avengers themes. Simon Mayo had a recreation of his Radio 1 jingle.

Even when Radio 2 shows are independently produced they have to work with the station sound team, they can’t just air whatever they like. I don’t think any shows are imaged “outside” of the station sound team.

Individual pieces or bits and pieces of course would not go through the full commissioning cycle but new packages costing tens of thousands of pounds MUST – Especially as there is no choice now. They are being paid for by BBC Worldwide NOT Radio 2. That’s the formula because the BBC will save money by being publisher. Ask Music 4 how they made all their money….That’s why the BBC took the process in house it allows the organisation to benefit from the jingles being played not costing them. Ultimately this will mean that they can play more jingles !!!!

Who knows someone ask the panel next week – they might ditch jingles and go for Sweepers. Heart, Capital, Bauer all have jingles, Maybe the new package will be like the Radio 1 groove addicts first package and dispense with musical ditties!!!!!
Clear out all the Steve Wright, Evans, Blackburn jingles and go for chilled out Philippa Collins sweepers!!!!

[MarcMannetje]

Thanks MB. In The Netherlands we don’t have a station like BBC Radio 2 but looking at the ratings some might wish we had…

[simon_t123Member]

Imaging on the big ‘NL’ stations has always interested me (MarcMannetje) now you mention it, the national public networks and the way they are run by a number of different producers makes for an interesting read on Wikipedia ! The imaging over the years seems to vary within one station but per production company, I’m sure this has lead to sometimes different styles, straplines and logos in use on networks at the same time ?

Back to the R2 imaging subject, it’s a (mainly BIG) personality led radio station, and whereas some stations would direct jocks to emphasise the station first and themselves second or someway down the list ! I think the reverse is true for R2, so it seems suitable that many of the personality fronted programmes have more unique show openers and imaging, the concept of having such fits more with what they are trying to do I think. As for Steve Wright, well he always came with his own jingles anyway !!! R2 wanted, or at least succeeded in capturing the essence of his whole R1 afternoon offering, complete with his own jingles, and from what I’ve always read that seems to have worked for them over the years. Tony Blackburn, Johnny Walker etc have more specialist shows, the theme is more the genre of music than the jock playing it so again it seems sensible that R2 provide these shows with imaging that suits what they’re trying to do … I’m not a regular R2 listener mind so my opinion is purely from a jingle perspective but of course knowing how the jingles in question are being used.

Perhaps WB or Grooveworx would best be suited to pick up the new imaging contract for R2, I say that because the good, the bad and ugly of custom show openers from those producers in recent years can continue to be used (as they promote the personality or show) alongside perhaps a new, slimmed down, simpler package of ramps and ID’s made just for the station. Cost wise Mr Blackburn’s ‘Pick Of The Pops’ ID is not very old and some life needs to be had from the purchase there

[TheBigCheese]

what is corporate direction? Would it be wrong to suggest that with such huge ratings (14.3 million listeners?), is may not be a priority as to whether the jingles need refreshing. I’d gamble that most of the listeners would prefer things to stay just as they are?

[Author]

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