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July 25, 2007 at 2:26 am #4881945KBAYguy
AMP'd Digital News Lite FM Briliant Expantion pack and TFM Radio on http://www.jonestm.com
July 25, 2007 at 9:13 am #31573radiojingles.co.nrare the vocals recorded in Dallas, i think it has to rehash its vocals, they need to polish the “Q” on the jingles. Log on to http://www.radiojingles.co.nr
July 25, 2007 at 1:04 pm #31577LenGroat
I have the new Jones TM and Wise Buddah CD's and they both seem to have a problem with VOCAL CLARITYQ102 ~ It does sound like the male is singing ' Quoy 102' (cut 2)
whereas the woman sings ' another dog free weekend' (cut 3)
&
'Currants and glasses' (cut 8 )
and WHY does the engineer add SO MUCH EEECCCHHHOOO ??
Some of the tracks are quite good, and the singers are ok, but it's destroyed by the echo and over souled singing
July 25, 2007 at 4:37 pm #31578JingleMadMemberCan you please complain to Jones TM about this instead sted of here, Len?
July 25, 2007 at 5:24 pm #31579LenGroatI was under the impression this forum was about discussing jingles, and their respective merits ?
When you cannot hear what a jingle is singing, surely THAT is a valid point??
If you run ANY company you are of course totally open to public debate and opinion on your product.
July 25, 2007 at 9:21 pm #31580martinlesterMemberLenGroat wrote:
I was under the impression this forum was about discussing jingles, and their respective merits ?When you cannot hear what a jingle is singing, surely THAT is a valid point??
If you run ANY company you are of course totally open to public debate and opinion on your product.
I have to agree with Len on this one
If we all sent comments directly to the Jingle company then we might as well close down the jinglemad site
also lets not forget most of the Major Jingle company's read what is said Bruce upchurch from Zone, Jon Wolfert from JAM and of course Chris Stevens from JonesTM have all posted remarks in the past
and they are more than welcome to add a comment about any package which is normally “Thats what the client wanted”
July 26, 2007 at 12:52 am #31582radiojingles.co.nr“Q102 ~ It does sound like the male is singing ' Quoy 102' (cut 2)
whereas the woman sings ' another dog free weekend' (cut 3)
“
these really had me chuckling! hahaha!
the whole point here is that jingles should have 'vocal clarity'.
I MEAN THINK ABOUT IT. Jingles are made not just for program directors, jingles are targeted to listeners!
and if listeners hear jingles singing … “another dog free weekend”…[chuckles] what kind of impression will that leave for them. A station earns so hard just to get a jingle package and it should be done the right way.
In fairness however to Jones tm , if you listened to cut #3 and cut#2 again, then you'll be able to get the right words. But then again first impressions last for listeners, if they heard a jingle saying Quoy 102, they will think the station name is Quoy 102!
the Reverb, the echoeing, as len said, and the Cher effect thing or whatever is that they call it, im not a sound engineer, but from a listener's point of perspective, they are just sugar coatings.
the singers have good voice, are they american singers anyway?
anyhow, lets give the package a chance, and i mean, the package is already out, how else could it be out, if the pd didnt like it?
July 26, 2007 at 12:42 pm #31589IainJohnstonMemberLenGroat wrote: …………..the woman sings ' another dog free weekend' (cut 3)
LOL!
I'd picked up on that one too Len ! I presume they mean a
“Talk-Free Weekend” – though that obviously is a new trendy
phrase to excuse the use of 100% automation at weekends
(…though THAT debate is for other Forums of course!)Regarding lack of clarity due to over-use of voice processing
/effects, it should be remembered that supposedly “conventional”
vocal group sound can still be almost un-intelligble e.g. the
notorious use of rushed crammed-in lyrics by Thomson Creative
– Palm Torquay comes to mind.Perhaps today's PDs/PCs need to learn from history – in the early
60s WABC New York's PD (wish I could remember which one)
deliberately had his audition tapes of jingles from PAMS played
out not through the super-duper high-quality sound system in the
studios but instead through a tiny 3″ speaker to simulate what
listeners would actually hear on their new-fangled transistor radios.Maybe with the “bubbling mud” on DAB and pirate-interferance
riddled FM in some areas, today's young and past-history-experience
lacking station personnel need to sit down and try to simulate or
re-create what the product might sound like in real life BEFORE
buying it?Or do they really just buy it because its trendy to do so?
(Garden patio heaters, anyone?!)July 26, 2007 at 9:51 pm #31598martinlesterMemberWixy1360 wrote:
…………..the woman sings ' another dog free weekend' (cut 3)
LOL!
I'd picked up on that one too Len ! I presume they mean a
“Talk-Free Weekend” – though that obviously is a new trendy
phrase to excuse the use of 100% automation at weekends
(…though THAT debate is for other Forums of course!)Regarding lack of clarity due to over-use of voice processing
/effects, it should be remembered that supposedly “conventional”
vocal group sound can still be almost un-intelligble e.g. the
notorious use of rushed crammed-in lyrics by Thomson Creative
– Palm Torquay comes to mind.The woman is singing “ Another Drug Free Weekend ” not that I would have know from the singing !
Its just lucky JonesTM provides the Lyric sheet but lets face it what a Crap lyric for a jingle
whoever decided on that must have been on something when they asked for that to be sungAs for the Palm Jingle I have to agree however its nothing to do with the singers it was just so poorly adapted
as JW once said ” If you try to replace “All Hits!” with something like “The Number One Hit Music Station in the Greater Tri-County Area!”, you may be disappointed with the results” as this was one of the packages produced while trying to sell off the company I can only assume they was not that interested as in the past they did produce some very good workJuly 26, 2007 at 10:04 pm #31599IainJohnstonMemberFair comment Martin!
Made me go back and listen to cut 3 again several
times, and with headphones – and it still sounds like
like “dog-free” or “talk-free” weekend!Good instrumentation on the track though.
(Bring back the REAL TM Productions!
http://www.4shared.com/file/20733019/3b08e96b/TM-Productions-TheTMSong-Stereo.html)July 26, 2007 at 11:12 pm #31601DevawebMemberThese are the real TM productions
But so is KVIL Signature, and Perfect Music, and PLJ07, and Viking FM. A wide range of products, for a wide range of clients. But all from TM. And, in the case of Amp'd, a co-production with Wise Buddah.
I don't expect many people to like ALL our stuff, but I hope that most people will like SOME of our stuff. Because that's what's great about jingles, what works for one person doesn't work for others.
It's a bit like dating, but with less candles!
ChrisUK – Lover of most jingles
PS – It's another jock free weekend… sounds like the lyric sheet got typed up wrong…
July 27, 2007 at 1:43 am #31602radiojingles.co.nrHello, Mr. Stevens.
With all due respect, we love TM, Jones TM. But I knew it was “jock” free weekend and not “dog” free weekend,anyhow, i've just went to the Jones TM site and i saw the q102 cuts are gone.
were they replaced? Nuff said about the q102 vocal stuff though.
But Chris, thanks for coming into the scene.
i, too, am a lover of most jingles.July 27, 2007 at 1:44 am #31603radiojingles.co.nroh hey, the q102 jingles are back.
July 27, 2007 at 11:08 am #31613LenGroatIt is indeed good that Chris Stevens responds on this site. It's a pity some of the PD's / creative people at the stations don't respond, after all they tend to control the lyric content of jingles.
' another dog free weekend'
I actually could hear :
' another drug free weekend'
and
' another dark free weekend'
But I NEVER heard the word 'jock'
THERE IS A MORAL HERE:
Whoever it may be that writes lyrics, they need to remember that certain words just do NOT sing well no matter WHICH singers sing them
This Q102 package has 'jock' (hard ending, soft first letter, it's an almost INVISIBLE word…)
Eclectic : I doubt if half the listeners* would even know what it means (?) and it sings TERRIBLY
Currents, is also a perfect example, it again 'sings' terribly and we hear 'currants ! !amazed
Sometimes it is the PLACING of the difficult word in the sequence, that makes it work, or not work. For example 'NewsTalk' and 'Talk' are not easy to sing clearly but if you listen to how JAM sing them and place them, they work. The KOST package from JAM has a lyric 'Continuous soft hits with less talk' and the track is written so the singers can ESTABLISH those key words 'less talk'.
No one has commented that the end 'block' / notes on this Quoy 102 package are extremely similar to the style used by ReelWorld? From that point of view I would agree with Wixy and say these do NOT sound like TM jingles.
Finally, as regards Chris's analogy, It's a bit like dating, but with less candles!
I would say It's a bit like dating, but with a blow torch – it burns out very quickly'
* If jingle packages HAVE to have EVERY cut with just ONE phrase, the programme people are assuming the listeners are not bright enough to recall just the station name, so WHY use words like 'eclectic' ?
July 27, 2007 at 11:25 am #31614LenGroat
POSTSCRIPTI forgot to mention the last comment from Chris Stevens:
'PS – It's another jock free weekend… sounds like the lyric sheet got typed up wrong'…
I checked the lyric sheet online and it DOES say 'drug'…
….. and so I HAVE to say : !lol
'sounds like the person at Jones TM who typed the lyric sheet ALSO could not hear what was being sung !!! '
My point is made….
July 27, 2007 at 11:48 am #31615Good Time OldieI have not heard the jingles you're currently talkng about, so I can't really comment on that.
However, I would like to run with the point Len makes about some words working better than others. As an example, I have asked the wonderful JW at JAM to sing the word “Wireless” many times and each time he has advised me that's it a hard word to sing and suggested something different. I must be honest and say he was right, but it's the fact that he offered the advise in the first place which is the main thing.
Finally, speaking generally, I just wonder how many Programmers actually have the balls to get back to the jingle company to point out any errors with a package, I know I do, and I am just a humble little nobody.
July 27, 2007 at 1:27 pm #31617martinlesterMemberLenGroat wrote:
No one has commented that the end 'block' / notes on this Quoy 102 package are extremely similar to the style used by ReelWorld? From that point of view I would agree with Wixy and say these do NOT sound like TM jingles.
I forgot to mention the last comment from Chris Stevens:
'PS – It's another jock free weekend… sounds like the lyric sheet got typed up wrong'…
I checked the lyric sheet online and it DOES say 'drug'…
….. and so I HAVE to say : !lol
'sounds like the person at Jones TM who typed the lyric sheet ALSO could not hear what was being sung !!! '
My point is made….
I think why this does not sound like a Jones TM package is the soloist sounds to me like Emily McIntosh ( correct me if I am wrong) but she is the Main Vocalist on 90% of the Reelworld and IQ Beats Packages
I am wondering as Reelworld/ IQ Beats are in Seattle if she was in the Jones TM studio or was this just sung remotely- could this be why the care and attention vocally was missing as this is not typical of Jones TM
While I accept that we are not all going to like every Jingle
The fact that so many people
including the JonesTM Employee !shy could not understand what was sung is not a good sign, as what chance do the listners have !I for example did not care much for the WiseBudda Capital Radio new Jingles
But a least you can Clearly hear that they are singing CAP-IT-AL on every cut
July 27, 2007 at 2:10 pm #31619mattii70Martin Lester wrote:
I for example did not care much for the WiseBudda Capital Radio new JinglesBut a least you can Clearly hear that they are singing CAP-IT-AL on every cut
I have to agree with you here, however Power FM have had the package resung and Wise Buddah have attempted to pack four syllables into three and it just sounds awful and inaudible. The demo is on the Wise Buddah site.
July 28, 2007 at 8:54 am #31627LenGroat
MattWhen the jingle company tries to pack four syllables into a space which only holds three, it's the time for them as the 'musical people' to tell the client it won't work. However, getting a new client or just keeping the client happy and bringing in the MONEY takes priority with SOME companies.
I also believe that engineers who work with synthetic tracks do NOT necessarily read music OR understand WHAT fits and what doesn't.
Martin
If they used Emily McIntosh and it was done remotely, it explains the very casual approach to CLARITY.
I met Tom Merriman many times (and of course the delightful Jackie) and spent many social weekends with them, they are both perfectionists. I'm certain that in the 'old days' of Tom's GREAT company such sloppy singing would never have been tolerated.
Maybe it would be better if they just called themselves 'Jones Jingles'
Wooof!
Oh that's my Rover, so it looks like I won't be having another dog free weekend ! !lol
July 29, 2007 at 1:19 pm #31652IainJohnstonMemberIts said that people should study HISTORY, so that they can learn to avoid the mistakes already made by others in the past, and so make the future better (or “avoiding re-inventing the wheel and it coming out square” for those
of you who may recognise that phrase often heard at a well-known UK electronics company!)“Power FM…resung… pack four syllables into three and it just sounds awful and inaudible“
This is called “cramming to fit” and as I've said before,
Thomson Creative were notorious for it. Yet you can
hear all about it, and how TM Productions designed a
major new concept package to avoid that and other
previous problems, by listening to…TM's “Phase II”
demo from circa 1970.Copies are still out there – the package is a wee bit old-fashioned
now, but the musical & production principles stand the test of time
(and Tom Merriman, JW, and the “musical people” as Len rightly
describes them, know the difference between musical instruments
(or synthetic ones) digitally thrown together making up a track
versus a proper “musical composition”).TM Phase II is “Jingle Composition 101” for anyone wishing to learn
a little of the basics about how to write jingles! For more advanced study,
JAM's “First 20 Years…” 2 CD set!To this day, you can hear echos of the musical structuring
that TM used there to support 6-sylable W- AND 4-sylable
K- call signs when you hear the best of JAM, TM/Century
and Alfasound musical structuring – its usually (but not always)
a 3-chord pad sequence under the station name. That structure
supports all kinds of call-letters, station names (even silly ones), DJ
names, frequencies, slogans (including kebabs and Sweden!), etc.Also, anyone who listens to US station versions of JAM jingles
resung for Radio One in e.g. the 1980s can hear that for
the BBC versions there are slighly different drums/percussion
under the “Radio One” name part of the vocals, where JAM
made slight adaptions to the cuts rather than “forcing” a fit.“…soloist sounds to me like Emily McIntosh….Main Vocalist on 90%
of the Reelworld and IQ Beats Packages…” (and obviously now
JonesTM, or at least someone using a very similar vocal style).I won't enter into the merits or otherwise of the lady's singing talents (already
discussed!), but can anyone imagine if in the 1960s & 70s EVERY single jingle
,EVERY single CUT, on EVERY single radio station in EVERY city or town
in countries all over the world HAD ONLY used the (legendary and distinctive)
TRELLA HART no matter what jingle company they bought their jingles from,
it would all have sounded absolutely awful and monotonous (no matter what
the talent or high quality of the singer's work), and every station would have been
indistinguishable from their neighbours.Yet that seems to be the direction its all going in!
So…
“When the jingle company tries to pack four syllables into a space which only holds
three, it's the time for them as the 'musical people' to tell the client it won't work.”If as Len appears to be suggesting, some of the people at today's Jingle Companies
no longer possess the musical & production expertise of their predecessors, then
its time they went and studied the HISTORY of their craft (or realised why JAM
still have a lot of “old hands” on their staff – they KEEP the knowledge!), otherwise
we'll be hearing more and more “Square Wheels”!(This is starting to get too much like writing essays back at school!)
July 30, 2007 at 1:55 am #31662radiojingles.co.nrsure thang, the jingles sound “like” Emily's voice, but im 100% sure it's not emily macintosh, as if i know emily.
But hey, we've listened to a lot of emily's works in the past from Reelworld to IQ Beats, She's very professional. I think the female voice of TFM Radio is a European Singer trying to sound like American. Pls correct me.
July 30, 2007 at 8:06 am #31663martinlesterMemberradiojingles.co.nr wrote:
sure thang, the jingles sound “like” Emily's voice, but im 100% sure it's not emily macintosh, as if i know emily.But hey, we've listened to a lot of emily's works in the past from Reelworld to IQ Beats, She's very professional. I think the female voice of TFM Radio is a European Singer trying to sound like American. Pls correct me.
Chris will be able to confirm if it is Emily Macintosh or not I noticed he did say the Vocal's were recorded in the States!
Also the TFM Radio I would not expect an European Singer to be involved, in fact I would guess they were recorded in Dallas ! (but I might be wrong)
July 30, 2007 at 5:22 pm #31669DavidHemsleyJingle junky wrote:
Can you please complain to Jones TM about this instead sted of here, Len?Pointless having forums JJ if you can't voice opinions . . . . .
July 31, 2007 at 10:54 am #31695LenGroat
Martin's comment: we've listened to a lot of Emily's works in the past from Reelworld to IQ Beats, She's very professionalAGREED
The singer has little control over levels, echo, or even her performance. The producer, engineer (and if he's there) the 'client', control this. If they don't like a take, she has to do the solo again.
After 3-4 hours clarity can easily go out the studio window… with SOME companies
August 5, 2007 at 1:06 pm #31807BarrasAnother fascinating post on Jingle Mad with some salient points expressed about mis-hearing jingle lyrics. On a similar theme, I remember Bruno Brookes on Radio One used to have a Top 10 chart of “twisted lyrics”. You hear some lyrics from a song (or jingle !) and the brain`s hearing perception, mis-interprets the original lyric and you actually hear other words.
For example, Bruno had this song from Peter Gabriel which sounds like he`s “PEEING IN THE RIVER”.
http://www.4shared.com/file/21395622/d147114d/TwistedLyric_PeeingInThe_River.html?cau2=403tNull
What about “YOU`VE GOT FUNNY TITS”
http://www.4shared.com/file/21396065/3d7792b6/TwistedLyric_Funny.html?cau2=403tNull
In this Roxy Music song called Avalon – you can hear Bryan Ferry sing “HAVE A LOAN”
http://www.4shared.com/file/21395612/fa6a428e/TwistedLyric_Have_A_Loan.html?cau2=403tNull
David Barras
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