[mbMember]

I don’t blame people for selling “original” CD’s online but there seems to be a thing now for selling CD copies and its a bit depressing, I really don’t mind giving copies of stuff to people because they like the same stuff as me – I’ve had good and bad experiences with collectors. Even though many seem to take delivery of a CD and then never quite manage to send you anything back which I find quite sad as it just makes me less likely to do the same agani for others. I pride myself that I send what I say and in return to have many people just ignore mesages and emails once they’ve got what they wanted.
Although there are all “decent” swappers / collectors.

I know lots of stuff is on here and downloadable from jingle company sites but there is still a thrill of waiting for the post to arrive with something you’ve really wanted.

Isn’t anyone just happy to swap stuff any more or are we just going to sell it to each other.
Or should I just copy my CD’s and sell em?
Does anyone else have any thoughts –

[BrammyMember]

I agree somewhat. I am selling an original CD on ebay at the moment simply because I have 2 copies and it is daft for me to hang on to it if another collector would like to own an original. It does surprise me a little that ebay allow ‘copies’ of any cd to be sold, but that’s a legal issue and not the moral one that mb seems to be referring to. I don’t want to be a hypocrite so I’ll be honest and say that I have purchased a copy online recently. I only did this because it was something I’d been after for years and nobody else seemed to have it, and I think that’s fair enough. It’s not something I’d do on a regular basis.

When I first started collecting it was all about recording stuff off the radio. The thrill of finally getting that elusice cut without the presenter talking all over it was great! I don’t think getting hold of demos from companies is a bad thing. When I discovered Alfasound and there ID collection tapes it probably got me more into collecting. It became a different kind of excitement then, saving up for the latest demo CD, sending off for it, ringing 0161 969 7618 to find out why my cheque had been cashed 4 weeks ago and yet I still hadn’t received anything!!!

I personally think swapping is the best method. It’s a cheap way of getting what you want and it also helps other collectors get hold of stuff they’re after. The only thing I would say is, unfortunately mb is right in what he says about people not holding up to their end of the bargain. We are all involved in collecting something that other people find odd. We defend our hobby yet some of us are willing to rip off our fellow collectors on a regular basis. Swaps are made on a trust basis, if we can’t trust each other….!

I’ll get down off my soapbox now. mb has made a very good point and one I expect will generate a lot of discussion.

[NickySMember]

I would never sell material I have – swapping stuff is part of the fun of collecting jingles. I am always happy to pay companies for demos as they are trying to make a living. I know it’s hard if you’re just starting to collect and certainly the web has made finding material a whole lot easier. But I agree with mb that there’s nothing quite like waiting for a new CD or MD to arrive in the post. And I also agree about certain people not holding up their end of a bargain … or indeed those people that just expect you to hand over all your best stuff and then get annoyed when you don’t want to. I am now a lot more cautious about who I swap with because I’ve been ‘ripped’ off in the past … sending high quality stuff to either get nothing in return or something that is such awful quality you might as well just throw it away. I need to only swap with a few trusted people these days – I know them and they know me.
As brammy said the Alfasound ID collection was great – oh how I wish Steve could release all the stuff on CD rather than just the crome cassettes that I have.
I hope that anyone who has swapped with me has always got what they were promised.
Strangely I have the most trouble with some US collectors!

[mbMemberAuthor]

Brammy – so did I – for exactly the same reasons it was a CD copy – only to see exacatly the same thing reappear the day after the auction had closed – so if anyone does want a copy of the copy for free ( and the people who bid will know what I’m on about ) let me know

I’d like to add that Nicky was one of the first people I had contact with and it taught me the right way to correspond with fellow collectors.

[DavidHemsley]

I sold Ben Freedman CD’s recentlty because I was allowed to as part of my deal with Brian Beck of 1997 when I was rep for Ben Freedman Productions.

Around that time I bought 200 cassettes of Radio Luxy stuff which I thought at the time was a reliable source – not so as I had to throw about 80% of them away – lets just say I was well skanked and learned a lesson from it. Lost a stack of cash on that, and some reputation too

As far as trading go – I don’t do it anymore. Theres very little I’m wanting now – and those people that know me well know that I just give stuff away now and expect nothing in return.

Alfasound demo’s . . . . there’ll be a new section on Jingle Ark soon dedicated to these items that we used to love so much.

I wouldn’t condone anyone making copies and selling them on ebay and such like – but is it wrong to charge a fee for duplication and processing? – or should collectors send blank CD’s and Postage packets? Not always a good idea – a guy from somewhere in Europe tried this once with me – three sets of minidiscs went missing in the end. Although it wasn’t mine or his fault – it looked bad on me.

So I guess we’ve all had bad experiences.

I must say though, as second in command here, I don’t want this thread to turn into a name and shame one – such posts will be removed.

[mbMemberAuthor]

David Hemsley wrote: I must say though, as second in command here, I don’t want this thread to turn into a name and shame one – such posts will be removed.

I just wanted to make clear that I didn’t intend to set the thread with this in mind but rather start a debate on the to swap or to sell mentality.

[rakMember]

Brammy wrote: We are all involved in collecting something that other people find odd. We defend our hobby yet some of us are willing to rip off our fellow collectors on a regular basis. Swaps are made on a trust basis, if we can’t trust each other….!

That’s a very good point Brammy! Why *do* people rip each other off?

Trading can be a bit of a ‘Catch 22’ situation sometimes – I’ve been given loads of great packages in the last year, but have been asked not to pass them on! It’s tricky keeping the trades going with other people with packages I’ve been asked not to dub.

As for the buying/selling argument – I’d buy an original CD – ie I bought an original Radio One JAM CD from a seller last year as it’s nice to have an original, but have never bought a CD/MD of a dub.

Especially in these days of digital CD clones – jingle collecting is a unique form of trading, where you can trade a perfect audio copy of something…. and still have it to own! Unlike the poor Antique collectors, who once they’ve sold their wares no longer have them to enjoy.

David

[DevawebMember]

As a producer, if I discovered someone was *selling* copies of my material, I’d be very pissed off. I appreciate that swapping is what collectors do, but selling it is well out of order.

So, if ever you hear of anyone reselling Devaweb stuff, or anything from my friends at Bespoke Music, please do let me know!

Chris

[m_hodgeyMember]

mb wrote: Isn’t anyone just happy to swap stuff any more or are we just going to sell it to each other. Or should I just copy my CD’s and sell em? Does anyone else have any thoughts

I recently bought several ‘Who Did That Music?’ and a couple of early Alfasound ORIGINAL CD demos off Ebay simply because you can no longer get them. I do not see any problem with collectors and the like selling original demo CDs. However, I do not condone people selling copies, especially for excessive prices! This isn’t just a problem confined to jingle CDs but music CDs and DVD’s etc and you have to be very careful with Ebay to make sure what you are bidding on is genuine. A few months ago I purchased a rare Soundtrack CD only to find it was a copy with photocopied box artwork. Having said that, I returned the item to the seller who did refund me. (I did off course do a free copy before I sent it back!)

Back to the original question, I’m always more than willing to swap stuff in my collection with others and I pride myself in playing fair when I do trade. You have to be careful sometimes as there are people out there who are not as honest as you would like, and like NickyS says, I too tend only to deal with trusted collectors I’ve know for years.

[NickySMember]

DavidHemsley wrote: I wouldn’t condone anyone making copies and selling them on ebay and such like – but is it wrong to charge a fee for duplication and processing? – or should collectors send blank CD’s and Postage packets? Not always a good idea – a guy from somewhere in Europe tried this once with me – three sets of minidiscs went missing in the end. Although it wasn’t mine or his fault – it looked bad on me.

I always think if you’re doing a swap then each others ‘costs’ are cancelled out – hence why I prefer to swap. But these days with blank media so cheap I don’t worry that much – it does get more of a problem if you’re sending stuff to the US etc.
Oh and I look forward to the Alfasound section … it would be so nice if Steve could release some old stuff but we all know the reasons why he can’t.

[BrammyMember]

NickyS wrote: Oh and I look forward to the Alfasound section … it would be so nice if Steve could release some old stuff but we all know the reasons why he can’t.

Call me stupid, most people do, but I don’t know why he can’t!

Please enlighten me, it all sounds very intriguing!!!

[mbMemberAuthor]

Devaweb wrote: As a producer, if I discovered someone was *selling* copies of my material, I’d be very pissed off. I appreciate that swapping is what collectors do, but selling it is well out of order.

So, if ever you hear of anyone reselling Devaweb stuff, or anything from my friends at Bespoke Music, please do let me know!

I think the web has become a great way of allowing collectors to hear and get copies of demos etc without having to produce tapes or CD’s – Having collector material circulating certainly is not detremental to a company, I’ve never known of any company getting really pissed off at people dubbing stuff off and swapping but I think Chris is right which is what I was aluding to how would you feel having given someone a dub of a package only to see them selling copies on line for profit. If it starts to get too bad are producers and companies going to stop being so free with material if they see widespread abuse. I think it is in the interest of the serious, honest collectors to try and stop widespread selling of Station package dubs or compilation CD’s of Demos. As I’ve said an original is fine but umpteem copies of dubs is getting dodgy.

[jaypeeMember]

Within the world of jingle collecting there will always be some package that someone else has that you want and you’d probably give an arm to get hold of it. I personally only have a couple of original Demo CD’s and a couple of tapes from the Alfasound days…. and thus I would put myself in that above category.

Firstly I must say thanks to the companies that have download areas showing of there latest work…. and to collectors like Ben Atkins, David Hemsley just to name a couple especially as most of the jingles I currently listen I have downloaded from various sources.

SELLING – I would never even think about burning any of this stuff to CD and then selling it on. Or even making a copy of anything I have and then selling it. It would just seem wrong – if I have something someone need then they are more than welcome to it!

SWAPING – This is were swapping or trading becomes an issues for me. Even though I think this is the best way for any group of people to do business (so to speak) I seem to be in the position where I would love to swap but don’t really have any thing to swap in return.

The last thing we as a group of collector needs to do is upset those very people that produce the jingles themselves thus cutting of our only means of collecting.

It always been apparent to me that within the world of jingle collecting that everyone has been more than willing to share what they have with whoever asks. THANK YOU to everyone who falls into this category.

If you want to make money of your fellow collector then this is not the hobby for you.

Regards

John Parker
Inexperienced Jingle Collector

[m_hodgeyMember]

Saw a certain Alfasound jingle package for sale on a auction recently; I think it went for about £50. Shame, I could have given whoever won it for free as part of a trade. Too bad.

[Bigdave]

The reasons are long and complicated re the copyright issues that surround the original Alfasound cuts . The best person that can tell you why is Steve England himself.

As Nicky mentions , it is a shame that some packages will never see the light of day on CD or be resung -“Essential Rhythm” and “LA Connection” are prime examples of really good work Alfa did before the split , plus the Key 103 1997 TOTH cut is one of my all time favourites (combined of course with that classic Brian James voicer..) . On top of all that ,with the massive back catalogue, you could do entire collections for some stations – look at the work Alfasound did for Trent – 14 Packages was’nt it at the end? Or was it more?

Anyway, the copyright issues also stop me from gaining my holy grail – the Channel 103 “Best Show” resings from their 1992 launch package. At the time when they were doing dubs before their demise , I ordered this only to have my cheque returned . Apparently , I was 1 week too late …they’d already applied for liquidation.

I hope that one day, Steve will be able to come to some reciprocable arrangement with Alan Fawkes for collectors and their own sakes to make the Alfasound catalogue available for authorised re-issue , collector dubs (a’la Ken R) , or even possible re-sings.

[mbMemberAuthor]

Bigdave wrote: As Nicky mentions , it is a shame that some packages will never see the light of day on CD or be resung -“Essential Rhythm” and “LA Connection” are prime examples of really good work Alfa did before the split , plus the Key 103 1997 TOTH cut is one of my all time favourites (combined of course with that classic Brian James voicer..) .
And the Vibe package and the Wolf In that lasy year they were really starting to cook with home grown jingles again.

Anyway, the copyright issues also stop me from gaining my holy grail – the Channel 103 “Best Show” resings from their 1992 launch package. At the time when they were doing dubs before their demise , I ordered this only to have my cheque returned . Apparently , I was 1 week too late …they’d already applied for liquidation.

Mine got there the day before so I got 3 packages – Steve called me and said he didn’t have time to do the 5 I sent money for but could do 3 whicvh did I want – talk about torn – In the end I got Signal – Setting the pace Beacon 2 and Beacon 4. I think my dubs were among the very very last material from Steve to some from the Alfasound Studios.

Bigdave wrote: I hope that one day, Steve will be able to come to some reciprocable arrangement with Alan Fawkes for collectors and their own sakes to make the Alfasound catalogue available for authorised re-issue , collector dubs (a’la Ken R) , or even possible re-sings.

My feeling was that this was not going to happen. Its a shame cos I think Mr England is one of the nicest people I’ve ever met from Radio and beyond.

[Bigdave]

The collection issue is a hard one to call…

Although companies are aware that high quality copies do change hands between collectors , most of the major players appreciate that trading spreads the word of their product .Also, they know that the “decent” people amongst us are using them for personal enjoyment – not for profit .

When people decide to sell copies of originals , when blatently not , then this not only becomes fraudulent , but also sours the good relationships people have made over the years . As it goes , my friends in the jingle arena (to coin a phrase) are people I’ve known now for more than 10 years – people like Ben , Pete , Mark ,Nicky and Dave Watts have all helped me out and me likewise I have helped them . It’s relationships like that that form trust between us all . Over the last year , I’ve also got know Dave H and Roy , plus Chris and Hirsty, and other members of this site and count them as good friends as well as fellow traders etc.

It’s that mindset that we should all carry through . I’ve always been of the belief of what’s in my collection,anyone can have a copy of,unless I’ve been informed otherwise not to duplicate any further copies by a fellow collector of something they may have sent.

If we all follow the same road,but keep our own individual tastes (cos not everyone loves the same packages or the same company!),then this bodes well for the future of jingles and the people who collect them , listen to them , and sing them (some better than others!)

I’m saying nothing about my singing abilities though

[DevawebMember]

Bigdave wrote: Anyway, the copyright issues also stop me from gaining my holy grail – the Channel 103 “Best Show” resings from their 1992 launch package.

Got em!

[JingleMadMember]

Interesting comments.
Here are a few of my own.
From as far back as I can remember, my passion for jingles and other aspects of radio imaging was founded on a word that hasn’t appeared so far in this thread. . . . . “generosity”.
Barry Charnley in London so generously sent me dozens of tapes, not to mention the dozens of ocassions he played entire jingle demos to me down the phone. I purchased many of his products but always felt that I’d never repaid that generosity.
Today, almost anyone who contacts me with an interest in jingles will get a warm, enthusiastic welcome and a giant jiffy bag. Generosity is the art of giving unselfishly without anticipating a return gesture.
Neither do I keep a score board to make sure I’ve received X number of CDs for X nember sent.
As for selling a clone/CD-R copy on eBay, I’m dead against it and the only person who has a lawfull right to sell their work is the owner/producer of that work.
My little story above is how it was 20-odd years ago and things have certainly changed now, except it’s still tough getting hold of packages from the pre-internet era.
Let’s keep this collecting/trading/swapping experience friendly, fair and above all . . . . “generous” !
Good night.
-Sean

[NickySMember]

We can all keep our fingers crossed that Steve (who I agree with earlier comments is a great guy and has always tried to help me out) will one day be able to release all the old Alfasound stuff – I still get a buzz listening to some of the Radio ID Collection cassettes (really must dub them all on to a digital format at some point in time).
I always try and be generous and like Sean don’t really go in for the “I sent you xx CDs so you must send me xx CDs” … some material (like the C103 stuff – stop teasing us Chris ) is more valuable because it’s not that widely available. I’ve got certain add on cuts for say R1 or R2 that I tend to keep to myself but am always happy to help out with the basic packages (like the R1 1987-1994 CDs).
The net has certainly led me to fellow collectors like Mark who I otherwise probably wouldn’t have found … long may it continue.

[Admin]

The way I see it is that its not yours to sell. You shouldn’t be making money from somebody elses work. Simple really. If you do, you should be shot by the jingle police. And they have some pretty powerful shotguns ya know.

Sayin that, does anyone wanna buy a copy of my Nile FM Reelworld master? I’ll even throw in the Channel 4FM package. Both are resings of Z100 2003. $150.

Hey, I’m kidding, ok?!

Neal

[Mikmoron]

Swapping is best, but then I would say that as I’ve only got two jingles packages to my name.

Regarding selling them on auction sites, I notice there are a few Alfa cassettes on there right now. It appears that they are all originals, and surplus to requirements, so that’s not too bad I guess.

Now back to my cds, anybody got anything good to swap ?

[mbMemberAuthor]

I’d just like to add that it really “is” buyer beware as the CD for YRN 4 is NOT the full set of jingles ( you get all the cuts ) just not all the jingles.

Plus several of the cuts are damaged and cut off badly at the end – If you are good on Audition / CEP you can use your initiative and rebuild them using other cuts ( some cuts use the same sing at the end ).

However the longer News , Sport and Travel cuts are also damaged and somewhere in the t/f to CD have skipped and so you get blips throughout the tracks.

I’ve been able to put together the whole package iwth the help of someone from Jinglemad but had they not offered thier help I would not have had the full package I “thought” I was getting.

If any others come up for sale it might be worth bearing the above in mind.

[topcat]

Bigdave wrote: The collection issue is a hard one to call…

Although companies are aware that high quality copies do change hands between collectors , most of the major players appreciate that trading spreads the word of their product .Also, they know that the “decent” people amongst us are using them for personal enjoyment – not for profit .

Folks:

You have to remember something. The jingle companies are in business to sell jingles…. not make dubs. If I worked for a jingle company, why would I worry about selling a dub of a package I’d have to dig through the archives for — costing me time = money

---

when I can sell new cuts to stations for $300US+ per cut.

It is a lot easier for a KenR.Com to sell product, as the majority of the original DAT tape transfers have been converted to CD. When you’re dealing with reel-to-reel tapes, it’s a different ballgame. Recently, a station wanted a dub of their old jingles. I had to:
1. Find the tape in question…
2. Bake the tape so it would play…
3. Dub the tape into the computer…
4. Edit the computer file and burn a CD.

In a lot of cases, it just isn’t worth the time… at least not for the little finances involved.

If a company such as JAM spent their time filling jingle collector requests, new product would never get out the door. The same holds true for the other companies.

Trading does not spread the word of their product… at least not to those who write the checks. If a station is going to purchase jingles, believe me… they know where to find them. Lastly, just because you’re hearing the jingles sung as “The Best Show In <>” instead of Denver, doesn’t make a difference.Okay… I’ll step off my soapbox!

-TC

[mbMemberAuthor]

topcat wrote: In a lot of cases, it just isn’t worth the time… at least not for the little finances involved.

Your are right and I don’t think anyone would disagree with you, and I think the economics is accepted. Alfasound provided a great service for collectors with its series that probably at best covered it’s costs in a time before you could just stick and mp3 on a website.

All the stuff about baking tapes is OK if you are talking about old jingles but there is a large group of collectors now who olny collect “new” jingles. I have little interest in PAM’s or verly old jingles. My collection stars around the Mid 70’s. Most of the post 1980 stuff is on video or DAT. I think alfasound switched to Video masters in about 84.

topcat wrote: Trading does not spread the word of their product… at least not to those who write the checks. If a station is going to purchase jingles, believe me… they know where to find them.

And the reason is that usually there is someone on the mannagement who is a bit of a jingle collector. The in teresting thing about jingle anoraks is you never know where they will turn up – Many of the people who once collected the Alfasound collections are now programmers or in production themselves.

topcat wrote: Lastly, just because you’re hearing the jingles sung as “The Best Show In <>” instead of Denver, doesn’t make a difference.

I really don’t understand the above because for people here on these formums in this jingle area I think you’ll find it “DOES” matter.

[Author]

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